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Dec. 25, 2009 / Christmas Day with Special Guest "Rosco"!

1:13 Rosco: I had a mid life crisis I guess and to put it bluntly I had an affair almost four years ago. College sweetheart. She wanted attention and I was frustrated in my marriage. But had not said anything to her.

1: 00 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Hello everyone and welcome to this special MLD chat. Hoping everyone is rejoicing today in celebration of the gift God gave to us in His son, Jesus.

1: 01 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Hello Rosco, welcome

1: 02 Rosco: Thank you. New to this whole thing. Hope I can type fast enough.

1: 04 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Rosco - fast typing isn't required and if you get behind on reading, you can click the lock scrolling and the screen will not auto scroll. But remember to either unlock to read new entries or manually scroll.

1: 04 Rosco: I have been on this roller coaster for over three years and now am still not at rock bottom. I have touched it but not been able to turn my life around to the point of returning. What do we normally discuss here?

1: 05 Rosco: Also figured out you can't type a novel

1: 06 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Yes, if you don't get your question/response in one shot, just type Cont or continued at the beginning of the next entry. entries are limited to 150 characters. Also please do not use real names in chat.

1: 07 Rosco: Really. Why is that?

1: 08 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: What is normally discussed, how people are hurting, frustrations of their spouse being in midlife crisis or themselves. Our fears, praises, it is a place for support, encouragement, information, just to know we are not alone. and on Monday, Doctor Conway joins chat for questions.

1: 09 Rosco: Well I got it all. I hurt. I am frustrated. I am afraid.

1: 10 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: We do not use real names to protect the innocent, so to say. This chat is open forum and there may be things said here that one may not want their spouse or children, friends or family to see and recognize that it is them. Kind of gives a little anonymity so we can be open about our pain, while not publically disgracing anyone else.

1: 11 Rosco: Sounds good.

1: 11 Rosco: Well. History is always good so here it goes.

1: 11 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: I will give you a little information on myself, my husband of 28 years was contacted by a woman he knew in grade school and they began an affair, I found out about it after almost a year and it was like once I knew, she started pushing for him to divorce me move to be with her.

1: 12 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Rosco - Here's a list of acronyms we use quite often. This should help you understand the conversations a little easier. w = wife / h = husband / ow = other woman / om = other man / d = daughter / s = son / dil = daughter-in-law / sil = son-in-law / mil = mother-in-law / fil = father-in-law / PTL = Praise the Lord / PG - Praise God / mlc = midlife crisis / MLD = Midlife Dimensions ministry (non-profit organization)

1: 13 Rosco: I had a mid life crisis I guess and to put it bluntly I had an affair almost four years ago. College sweetheart. She wanted attention and I was frustrated in my marriage. But had not said anything to her.

1: 13 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Hello Lia, how are you today, hope your Christmas is well and full of God's grace.

1: 14 Rosco: I came home from that trip and told her but it only helped in the physical department. We didn't address the issues.

1: 14 Lia: Swan I wish the same for you, I’m better than last eve when kids were gone for while, but PTL the 3 of us went to candle light service & all woke up together!

1: 15 Rosco: She thought by encouraging the affair I would grow out of it.

1: 15 Lia: Rosco welcome & thanks for having the courage to discuss this painful time

1: 16 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Hey Jo - how is your Christmas going?

1: 16 Rosco: The history is worse. I got a clue but then came number two! She was a friend of the family and wanted to help me get away from number one.

1: 16 Lia: Hey Plum & jO2

1: 16 Rosco: She was the one who wanted me to get divorced. My W and I said D would never be in our vocabulary.

1: 17 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Hi Plumcrazy, welcome

1: 17 Lia: Rosco Praise God you both have discussed D not being an option!

1: 17 Jo2: Swanlake - I’m waiting for my daughter-in-law to pick me up in 15 minutes. We're going to her family's Christmas dinner. They have a 'silly' gift exchange later. You may have done one of those in your life. Fun.

1: 18 Rosco: That lasted for two years and ended in a family adopting a wonder little girl.

1: 18 Lia: Jo2 sounds like fun 1: 17

1: 18 Rosco: Lia. I am divorced now. : (

1: 18 Rosco: I figured out a week after we signed papers that it was the worst mistake of my life!

1: 19 Plumcrazy: Rosco-Is this the first time you have been in our chat?

1: 20 Rosco: My W and I had always been together during three plus years of me being unfaithful. I never stopped loving her and we were working to support our four kids in all they were doing so we never talked

1: 20 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Rosco - this is a hard road to travel for the person in MLC and those who love them. I am sorry that the paths lead you to divorce, but as those here who have reconciled marriages, even after divorce, there is always a path back to reconciliation, it is just sometimes a very rough path.

1: 21 Rosco: We never got down and addressed the issues. We only worked to take care of the kids and pay the bills. She was a SAHM for 16 years. I resented that. I was only thinking of me. All it took was her moving for a job and BANG! I got it.

1: 22 Rosco: I have told her I want to work on things and she says right now she needs to find herself. I can respect that but at the same time I have anxiety issues that make that hard to do.

1: 23 Lia: Rosco God is a God of Reconciliation Jesus came to reconcile us to the Father & from the beginning, God's law says one man & woman till death so Swan is right it is hard but a piece of paper can't stop the Lord. He wants you & your wife saved & together

1: 23 Jo2: Rosco - I can't stay long because I have a prior engagement for the afternoon but I want to encourage you to keep reconciliation available as a choice in the future. There is a book you might get good info from...... continued.

1: 24 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Rosco - I don't know if this will help you, but your story is very much like mine, except that it is my husband going through crisis. There is a part of me that would love to hear from my husband, to have him want to work on us, but at the same time there is a part of me that would be afraid of being hurt again, so caution would probably play a big part.

1: 24 Lia: Rosco Do you subscribe to Charlyne cares devotionals & standing firm?

1: 25 Rosco: I want to reconcile. She wants to find out what she wants. And yes I have broken her trust so much it would be a miracle if I could regain it.

1: 25 Rosco: Lia I do not subscribe.

1: 25 Jo2: Rosco - LOVE LIFE FOR EVERY MARRIED COUPLE by Ed Wheat. Especially good are chapters 10, 14, 15, 16. Ch 15 is How to Save Your Marriage Alone and talks about how to keep your options in tune with God's options.

1: 26 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Rosco - don't worry about spelling, we all often hit a key wrong, yet somehow we manage to figure out what the other is saying. Just be yourself and share what you are comfortable with, ask us anything and we will respond the best we can.

1: 27 Lia: Rosco again Swan is right I went through an "indiscretion" 13 years ago my H had very difficult past possibly attachment & personality issues too. Definitely abandonment issues from childhood He may have started in MLC in his 30's & stalled

1: 28 Rosco: Jo2 thank you. I want to keep the HOPE alive.

1: 28 Lia: Rosco cont: Things were pretty good, but my H's jobs & business plus many hobbies took precedent so we didn't get through the real issues lots walls up too My H seemed take advantage having all he wanted & never having make up & now he's full blown

1: 28 Jo2: Rosco - There is a great devotional, written by a man whose marriage was restored. Go to www.standingfirm.net

1: 29 Rosco: Lia I would not call mine an indiscretion. I told her so many horrible things and now that my eyes are open I am lost and need to find me and find a way to serve the Lord by being the best dad I can be!

1: 30 Lia: Rosco cont: MLC It is so excruciating esp. when someone forgives & you are sure it won't happen again. 1st time I was thankful it didn't go "all the way" Now he's living with OW practically since day left prob w/ her long b4 Your W will prob be

1: 30 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Rosco - Have you read Jim's book "Men in Midlife", it is extremely helpful. There are many other books, sites, etc. that might be helpful, however, don't really want to overwhelm you by throwing a bunch of them at you today. But Jim's book is a great place to start, continue to come here, you can also arrange phone counseling with Jim.

1: 31 Jo2: Rosco - Never give up believing that God want your marriage to be restored. Your children need to have the model of reconciliation and restoration by their parents to make it in their own future.

1: 31 Lia: Rosco cont: cautious as Swan eluded to Lots hurt, but God WILL heal her & you & restore you He brought you here It's hard journey but Nothing is impossible with God

1: 32 Lia: Jo2 1: 25 that's one of the best books ever!

1: 33 Rosco: I have HOPE. I have a picture on the dresser of her. In the frame is my wedding ring and a fortune I got one night I was having a hard time "If you have HOPE. You have everything."

1: 33 Jo2: Rosco - I hope you will come to our evening chats and learn from these super standers that there is HOPE! Several of the facilitators have restored marriages. They are a great resource to all.

1: 34 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Rosco - You may have said horrible things, but as you said your eyes were closed and even though what you said and did hurt your wife, you were/are experiencing your own kind of pain and though MLC is not an excuse for what is done, once you and she understand that there are factors outside of your control, it makes it easier to forgive one another, yourselves and she will see that neither of you were 100% guilty, nor 100% innocent and then you can begin to rebuild.

1: 35 Plumcrazy: Rosco+I will have to remember that fortune I like it

1: 35 Lia: Swan & Jo2 The OW bought clothes & stupid little things from where she works for my kids gets discount plus commission. She wrote from dad & xxxxx on all their presents which my kids weren't happy about. I think it's another ploy to try take my place

1: 36 Rosco: We are friendly and in fact she and the kids just left to go to her parents. We spent the last day and a half together. Up all night wrapping presents. Literally ALL night I have had 2 hours of sleep. Tried to but my heart is full and I need support that’s how I ended up here.

1: 36 Lia: Rosco You could wear your ring & in future as God leads you explain what God is teaching you about covenant & your stand to your wife when she's ready to receive it!

1: 37 Plumcrazy: Rosco How did you find us?

1: 37 Jo2: Rosco - Well God got you started, now you keep coming back.

1: 37 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Rosco - Good, keeping pictures of our spouses, continuing to wear or keep our wedding rings close are a reminder that we do have hope and when we put it in God's hands everything is possible. I still wear my wedding rings, and there are many pictures of my husband here in my home, even though I haven't seen or heard from him in a few years. I pray for him and my heart aches for what he is going through.

1: 38 Lia: Rosco 1: 34 Swan's right those outside forces are from the enemy who wants to destroy everyone in a family & perpetuate the ugly curse of divorce

1: 38 Jo2: ALL - My ride is here and I have to go. Blessings to all on the day of all days, the celebration of the Birth of the Savior, Jesus. See you again. Bye!

1: 39 Lia: Merry Christmas Jo2

1: 39 Rosco: Thank you for your encouragement Jo2

1: 40 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Lia - honestly with the other woman, it isn't about taking your place, it is about her trying to establish her place in their lives. It is better not to take these things personal, because as much as it may seem or we might believe, there is often nothing personal against us involved, they simply want to make a place in the man they are involved with life and if that includes children, they try to make that happen too.

1: 40 Lia: Swan My oldest came over for little while & then was going to movies alone today as of last night now seems ow her son & my H are driving over with her & going diff movie My H was sure call & tell her hurry up I think OW suggested it what kind person

1: 41 Plumcrazy: Merry Christmas Jo

1: 42 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Rosco - we are glad you found us and hope you find yourself back here as often as you need a place to come for support and to begin encouraging others when you feel you can offer them words of wisdom.

1: 42 Lia: Swan cont not only steals someone else's H but tries to play family with her kids too. That's the worst of all of this sometimes. These are MY/our kids not hers she NEVER wanted settled family life for over 40 yrs & now she wants my life ughhhh!

1: 42 Rosco: My 3rd OW and I still talk and we never wanted to get to the point of an affair but it happened. The one thing did not do was combine family. We supported and sinned. Now it is a recovery effort and she wants and supports me getting my family back

1: 43 Rosco: We know there can be no more contact at some point.

1: 43 Plumcrazy: Rosco- did you see what I asked earlier? I was wondering how you found our chat

1: 43 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Rosco - if you could please type the name of the person you are addressing at the beginning if your comment is intended for a certain person, or all if you just wanting to say something but it isn't to anyone person.

1: 44 Rosco: About four years ago I was searching for help in my MLC. and ran across the site, I have been getting e-mails ever since.

1: 44 Lia: Swan 1: 40 I know what you say makes sense, but she has him just leave my kids alone! She was very competitive with her last boyfriend's daughters, jealous of them & befriended them all she could then ow left him broken for my H & guys dtr is still friends

1: 45 Plumcrazy: Rosco-Is this the first time you have been in chat though? All the people here are great helpers

1: 46 Rosco: 1: 43 Swanlakejgs- cnrl C and cntrl V takes care of that. thanks for the guidance.

1: 46 Rosco: 1: 45 Plumcrazy - yes my first time.

1: 46 Lia: Swan cont with ow gag! I want her saved but completely out of our lives! My oldest dtr hugged her because my H bought her (dtr) a laptop for college. This woman is living high life with my H's & children's monetary future & dtr befriends her?

1: 46 Lia: Swan Guess it will never make complete sense to me!

1: 47 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Lia - well the truth is she didn't steal what your husband wasn't willing to give her and again, she is trying to establish her place in your husband's life, children and all. This is why Jim and so many others say it is important for us to take our focus off of the other person, Jim says to think of it as they don't exist at all. We cannot make any sense out of what is going on, and trying to put everything in a box will only drive us insane.

1: 48 Rosco: 1: 46 Lia,1: 43 Swanlakejgs, take it from the guy who was using his monetary means to have an OW. When they have you by the *&%*'s you tend to do what makes them happy.

1: 48 Rosco: 1: 46 Lia,1: 43 Swanlakejgs- in a MLC as I see it makes us crazy and an unable to see what is most needed or important.

1: 48 Lia: Rosco 1: 42 Does she have family too? Regardless, if you are standing, you will need to break contact with all ow & learn to set healthy boundaries & how to protect your marriage. Rick from Affair recovery network does a lot with this & stopping

1: 49 Lia: Rosco cont relapse behaviors in future They also are Christian focus

1: 50 Plumcrazy: ALL-I have a roast in the Crockpot for dinner. H made beef curry for lunch. We have both cultures covered LOL

1: 50 Rosco: 1: 48 Lia- she was in a 22 yr marriage to an abusive alcoholic. Her S is in college and DTR is a senior and leaving this summer. She was rescued.

1: 51 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Rosco - I will second what you have said at 1: 48 - my husband has told our children that he is miserable, hates life, is angry every second of every day now, he and the other woman sleep in separate bedrooms, yet he feels like he owes her, but cannot explain exactly what it is or why he owes her and he spends whatever it takes to keep her happy.

1: 52 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Plumcrazy - sounds very tasty - YUMM

1: 52 Rosco: 1: 51 Swanlakejgs- I have known in my heart that my W is the "ONE" but couldn't hold strong and leave the OW. Just like an alcoholic.

1: 52 Lia: Swan 1: 47 I like the box thing because that's generally how men think In some ways I think more like men sometimes I feel deeply, but don't let it lead my life my H seems live in drama constantly yet never tries really figure out how feels

1: 53 Plumcrazy: ALL-Has been a quiet day. My Mom called and H talked to her. When he got off the phone with her he asked her if she wanted her daughter back H said "No one here wants her" Mom said "Yeah , I'll take her. I ignored him

1: 54 Lia: Rosco 1: 48 That's good to hear your perspective. My H is kind of big in the image thing dept. so is his ow but she had nothing because she's gone person to person to live off them & as Swan was saying to me does all she can to invest a man & quickly

1: 55 Rosco: 1: 52 Lia: Swan 1: 47- drama seems to follow me. I don't think I like it but the OW says she sees it often.

1: 55 Plumcrazy: All_ I did dress up and put on make-up though.

1: 55 Lia: Rosco My H had Nothing when we met & we worked very hard to have a nice life Does it stroke H ego to "buy" someone’s loyalty & affection. Seems so because in here we notice H's usually "affair down" so to speak to feel more important?

1: 56 Rosco: 1: 55 Plumcrazy: sounds like he does not see what he has?

1: 56 Rosco: 1: 55 Lia define "affair down" never heard that term

1: 57 Lia: Rosco when did you start to see that someone wanted you because their own pain, dysfunction, need for money, etc.... I want our health & home when H comes home I know God will restore EVERYTHING though but I have to be willing to love him back regardless

1: 57 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Rosco - Jim actually says that the other woman is often just like a drug and the MLC'er like an addict. As much as we would like our spouses to leave the other person and even they would like to leave the other person, there is a pull that doesn't just go away. This is one reason Jim says that contact with the other person must be completely cut off or that pull will never be broken and once guard is let down will grow strong again.

1: 58 Lia: Rosco cont of the condition he comes home in Resat is up to God just like H's salvation & our restoration

1: 58 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: All - Woke up to a White Christmas here, it is beautiful.

1: 59 Plumcrazy: Rosco=It is a long story. Says he loves me but isn’t in love with me. No OW. H says he saw his dad do that and he would never do that

1: 59 Rosco: 1: 55 Lia - I never felt the need to buy love or affection. Early on in my marriage we were broke and I was selfish and wanted hobby things. My W would say that we couldn't afford the things I got her. I LOVE jewelry.

2: 00 Lia: Rosco 1: 22 God wants her marriage restored & her H healed As long as she is safe! God can still restore her marriage too. She can still stand & pray for H's salvation & their restoration. At same time she & kids need be physically safe

2: 01 Rosco: 1: 55 Lia - #2 OW demanded stuff and I wouldn't. #3 OW has never asked for a thing. In fact has done everything she can to not have me help or pay. We work same C and both do just fine. I did it just because and she gave me the reaction my W never did

2: 01 Plumcrazy: Lia-I think when you said affair down you meant he went to a lower class woman right?

2: 02 Lia: Swan Do you suppose they think OW will crumble without them & they expect us to be able to be alone. When my H started getting involved with someone long ago, even though he fought & got out b4 it came to worst point, he said he felt bad for her because

2: 03 Lia: Swan cont I had him & she would be alone Funny thing is that woman had recently broken up with HS sweetheart after that they got back together, married & have child.

2: 04 Plumcrazy: Swan-what do you think of the comment H made? I ignored it but it still bothers me. guess since I am feeling down it got to me more

2: 05 Lia: Plum sorry : ( @ 1: 53 way to go not letting him push buttons!

2: 07 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Lia - I don't know about crumble, or that these woman could be considered less than us. Typically many of the other persons are needy and that allows our spouses to be the rescuer. Sadly in marriage we become too comfortable with one another and begin to take each other for granted, they come across someone who needs them or simply someone who is in their lives daily, that they have things in common with and one lunch becomes daily, then dinner, then they begin to open up with each other on a personal level and there isn't all the baggage of home life, being tired, bogged down with the stresses of marriage, etc. and infatuation beings, turning into an affair, and so...

2: 07 Lia: Rosco 1: 56 affair down means someone who hasn't lead an exemplary life, maybe, runs around, alcohol drug issues, much lower social, educational, financial status & most importantly very LOW moral code At least that's how I see it

2: 08 Plumcrazy: Lia==He made a couple of other comments today I thought werent appropriate for the day. I think he was testing me especially since what day it is. He said feelings/spirit is for losers. and another similar comment

2: 08 Rosco: 2: 04 Plumcrazy - I was horrible and told my W that she didn't measure up to the Other Women. How wrong I have been. After 19 would have been 20 years last week. I and my 16yr dtr are living together. and W and 2 smaller kids are 200 miles away. I am mom and dad.

2: 09 Lia: Rosco It is so good you are here God has been working this day for long time & you are helping others too. Swan's right that you are confirming so much we have heard about H's affairs & OP It helps us feel it's not personal!

2: 09 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Plumcrazy - to be honest, don't take it seriously, I would guess he thinks he was being funny and there is nothing more to it.

2: 10 Lia: Plum 2: 01 yep

2: 11 Plumcrazy: Rosco--H and I have been married 21 yrs D15 and S 11, Together 22 yrs. this started in March 2009. Got bad after he took something I said the wrong way and turned into Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hyde

2: 11 Rosco: 2: 07 Swanlakejgs AMEN! that’s exactly how OW #3 happened. OW and I have discussed it at length to help me work on my rebuilding with my W so that I don't make more mistakes and lose sight of how wonderful my W is.

2: 11 Lia: Rosco It prob felt like your wife didn't give you same reaction but remember in affairs there is newness mystery, the unknown & forbidden, NO RESPONSIBILITIES, that was all part of the trap & the lies satan uses. My H never lavished me like does ow, esp with time & attention which is what I so needed My H was never denied anything he wanted even lots freedom If I followed H around like ow does he'd been gone long ago it's kind of pathetic sometimes like you said a drug addiction

2: 13 Plumcrazy: Rosco=did you ever tell your W "I love you but I am not in love with you?"

2: 13 Rosco: Lia, This year for Christmas I "lavished" as you put it my W and we discussed that it was not out of guilt. It was out of love. She cautioned me that right now she can't give me the emotion or attention I would want. I got four hugs in the last day and I cherish hugs from her now. I can’t ask for them I have to wait for her to GIVE them. I miss her every day I wake up in the nightmare

2: 15 Lia: Swan 2: 07 So why is that neediness & being rescuer so attractive. My H expected me to always be able to function independently Too much so, I hated being alone sooooo much. I wasn't allowed to ever need H for anything really

2: 15 Plumcrazy: ALL-Working on biting my tongue today.

2: 16 Lia: Plum 2: 08 He's pushing trying test you for new sort reaction listen for sparks of truth

2: 16 Rosco: 2: 15 Plumcrazy: rather than bit. praise? Is H really that negative?

2: 17 Rosco: 2: 13 Plumcrazy: Rosco=did you ever tell your W "I love you but I am not in love with you?" Sure I remember the day and the look on her face. I will regret it for the rest of my life.

2: 18 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Rosco - I know as the person being left emotionally or physically, it becomes very easy to blame the other person and think horrible things about them, but the truth is they are often NOT an evil person who set out to destroy others. And as one who is the person who was left, I can tell you that as long as I saw the other women my husband was involved with in that manner, bitterness was a big part of my life and I was very unhappy, no peace and the hurt was always right there on the edge. But once I stopped looking with bitter eyes and accepted that they are God's children too, that they have hurts in their lives and didn't think about what it might to do me and our children, their families, etc. I have been able to forgive and God has granted me a peace beyond words. I pray for the other woman with my husband, I have even cried for her, not because of her but for her. I don't really want to be friends, but I want her to have a blessed life, the life God has intended for her and I know that I know that I know, it isn't with my husband.

2: 18 Plumcrazy: Rosco-Yes he is. He has seemed to get better in last couple of weeks though. I have given him lots of praise during that time though. H is SEVERELY depressed but won’t get help. Last yr at this time he was talking suicide. So at least this yr is a lot better

2: 18 Lia: Rosco 2: 13 PTL for those hugs My H is still in the very angry, hateful phase of this. He barely can say hello when I answer the phone the kinder I remain, the meaner he is. He sometimes brags to others about how treats me & does all can to discredit my life.

2: 19 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Lia - because during MLC, they begin to see their lives as incomplete, unsuccessful and I don't care who you are or what it is a person, animal, etc. helping others, rescuing feels good.

2: 20 Lia: Rosco, make sure you speak your wife's love language & not yours! The love languages book is good So is Love & Respect & Cracking the Communication code! # 1 book of course the BIBLE!!!!!!! God puts it all there!

2: 21 Rosco: 2: 20 Lia I am still needing to go figure out the language part.

2: 21 Plumcrazy: Yoli-HOW ARE YOU?!!!! SO GLAD YOU ARE HERE

2: 22 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Lia - also there is a big difference between being dependant, being independent and being interdependent, unfortunately we usually go from dependant to independent and never consider interdependence. For now, the dependence is fulfilling a need they have and until it becomes a burden, it is what makes him feel useful in life.

2: 23 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Hey Yoli, welcome

2: 23 Yoli: Plumcrazy: Hey, how are you? I just wanted to check to see who was on.

2: 23 Lia: Swan 2: 18 AMEN, AMEN, AMEN to that end point esp. It is amazing we can cry for them & condition of their souls I pray the ow's marriage is restored too. Her child doesn't remember a mom & dad & ow wants it no matter what our kids feel sad : (

2: 24 Yoli: Swanlake: Hey, how are you? I hope you got a break from last night.

2: 24 Rosco: 2: 22 Swanlakejgs - with time comes the fact we don't see as clearly what the other is doing to grow the relationship. We stagnated.

2: 25 Lia: Swan 2: 22 Are you saying that H's & others just haven't gotten to point of interdependence sort of like they are swinging from extreme of independence to dependence & they have swing back to interdependence in middle? & dependence is comforting now?

2: 26 Plumcrazy: ALL_OOP left fudge out and it got gooey had to stick it in the freezer

2: 27 Plumcrazy: Yoli-I am ok Feeling kind a down though. Missing my family back home Haven’t seen them in 3 yrs

2: 27 Yoli: Swanlake: Did you have a good Christmas?

2: 28 Plumcrazy: Swan --My Mom is in KS said they got 8 in of snow. Did you get any?

2: 28 Yoli: Plumcrazy: I'm sorry about that. Where is home? Northeastern US? They haven't gone to visit you? I’m one to talk. I don't go home much either. It's just too far a drive. My parents came to older daughter's graduation last weekend. They made me

2: 29 Lia: Swan cont from 2: 25 My H was abandoned age 16 He had already been bounced around a lot. he raised self a lot. He admitted my families stability was what he wanted now OW has few responsibilities & lots fun like when teens yet she has time need to do

2: 29 Plumcrazy: Yoli-my parents are living on social security can’t afford to travel

2: 29 Yoli: Plum: cont-cry. They didn't mean to. They just kept telling me to forget about my husband cause there's nothing I can do. They told me to go with daughters to visit them. When I told mom that it was too hard for me to go back, she asked if it wasn't

2: 29 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Lia - what I am saying is most people don't find interdependence at all, they go from dependence to independence, period the end. When a relationship first begins what is dependence doesn't seem like it, it is "new love" and the endorphins run high creating that warm happy feeling that gets confused with love and respect. After time, it becomes burdensome and it is usually at that time people begin to feel smothered, demanding "space", which quickly becomes independence. Any relationship will die if this is the case. It is when interdependence is achieved that the relationship grows and thrives.

2: 30 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Yoli - I am having a wonder white Christmas, stress free and here with great friends.

2: 30 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Plumcrazy - we did, about five inches

2: 30 Yoli: Plum: cont-sad staying home by myself. I think the way my h handled daughter's graduation made me so emotional. We should have been attending and celebrating this milestone in her life together. Instead, he took girlfriend. Makes daughters choose.

2: 31 Lia: Swan cont to cling to H @ all cost, so that obsessive, adolescent attachment is comforting? Could my H have seriously needed me to be independent & let have freedom when we were young & relied on my emotional stability because needed that then & now wants

2: 31 Lia: Swan cont smothering instead?

2: 31 Lia: Yoli Any chance going see family in future?

2: 32 Yoli: Swanlake: Good. I’m glad. I guess I missed seeing snow. It was so pretty when it snowed here a few weeks ago. There were some big snowflakes. I wanted to call my husband and talk. Oh well.

2: 32 Plumcrazy: ALL_ I love you Ladies and glad to meet you Rosco. nice to have the view on a man going thru MLC. Jim has gone thru it too and it is always nice to hear what someone who has gone thru it thinks

2: 32 Lia: Yoli how was the party?

2: 33 Yoli: Lia: You mean my family? I doubt it. We almost went this morning. My sister asked me to surprise our parents. Daughters got into argument about going. They wanted to leave last night. I wanted to wait until this morning. It seems that dad had ordered them to his house yet for one more dinner. He's been doing this a lot. It doesn't really matter what I’m doing. I wanted them to go to church with me last night but I ended up going by myself. The Lone Ranger yet again.

2: 35 Plumcrazy: Yoli-Is your phone number on the info Hannah gathered? I would love to talk to you on the phone

2: 35 Lia: Swan : ( that's exactly what happened with H @ least He's very extreme sort of person I was fortunate to grow up in strong yet supportive loving family. We all function well alone, but are very close as well. My H was dependent on me & I wasn't really

2: 36 Yoli: Lia: Thanks for asking about party. Her party was kind of sad. Few people but then it was 1 week before Christmas. Lots of her friends were also graduating over 3 different ceremonies. Daughter said she was glad to see my parents.

2: 37 Yoli: Plum: Yes both numbers are listed. It's easier to get me on my cell though. It's hard to talk with daughters around. I’m usually around.

2: 37 Lia: Swan cont allowed to need him for anything. I know it's circumstances, but it "seems" like OW does lots things H does. Things I wasn't suppose to do because he expected me be the wife & mom role forever not the girlfriend so to speak. Maybe H & ow are

2: 37 Plumcrazy: Yoli+ok I will try your cell Will you be around tomorrow?

2: 39 Plumcrazy: All_ Anyone going shopping tomorrow?

2: 39 Lia: Swan too dependent It seems so, I know God will use that esp. to grow me while they unravel! Then we can be healed & even more stable after H's hit bottom & have start on healing journey instead of on journey to sin & pain

2: 39 Yoli: Lia: I can totally relate to how you feel about OW being around and doing things with your h. I've been upset that h can't seem to go anywhere or do anything without her being attached. He even took her to graduation ceremony even though he was

2: 40 Yoli: Lia: cont-told not to. Over the past week, I've had to ask myself several times as I cry my eyes out, what am I doing? As you said I know it's all circumstances but it gets to me. I feel helpless.

2: 40 Lia: Swan what are some ways to invest our H's more & help them be more interdependent? Hard question I’m sure but if anything comes to mind on subject

2: 40 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Plumcrazy - oh yeck yes, I earned 35 dollars in Kohl's dollars during Christmas shopping for my daughter and you bet your bippy I am getting my rebate, have to use immediately, but I am not giving it up.

2: 41 Rosco: All- I need a nap and feel a lot better talking with you. Thank you so much for all you have said. I copied down the book and link so I will check them out later. I have next week off so I will have time.

2: 41 Lia: Yoli 2: 32 What do you think H would do if you just called to talk about something like the snow & how pretty it was? 2: 32

2: 41 Yoli: Plum: I think I’m taking younger daughter to begin looking for some more winter clothes. She's freezing up in New York. We are just not used to it being that cold continuously.

2: 42 Plumcrazy: Rosco_take care Was nice to meet and talk to you

2: 42 Lia: Yoli 2: 34 I am so sorry, that must have been really hard. I pray you enjoyed the service any how!

2: 42 Rosco: 2: 42 Plumcrazy Thank you. I will be back!

1:13 Rosco: I had a mid life crisis I guess and to put it bluntly I had an affair almost four years ago. College sweetheart. She wanted attention and I was frustrated in my marriage. But had not said anything to her.

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