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Jan. 4, 2010 / Mon. 6-7 pm PST / CR#2 with SPECIAL GUEST FACILITATOR, DAVID ALAN

6:53 BlueSky: David, when you said those dreaded words that we have all heard..."I don't love you anymore", does the mlc man really mean it?

6:58 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: 6:53 BlueSky: IN his mind, yes. But remember, his mind isn't sound right now. He is confused and struggling for a way out.

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6:01 Swanlake: Hello everyone

6:01 MAS: Hello.

6:01 Cricket [Facilitator]: Good evening all. I know Lisa was swamped but I’m sure she'll be joining us soon.

6:01 sbky: hello

6:01 bethel: all: happy 2010!

6:01 LisaK [Programmer]: whew!

6:02 LisaK [Programmer]: Hi guys. CRICKET, thanks for opening!

6:02 Cricket [Facilitator]: Hi Swan, sbky, MAS, Bethel and dgirl.

6:02 Plumcrazy: Hey People

6:02 Cricket [Facilitator]: Bethel & dgirl - I’m glad you came back tonight. I’m not sure if Jim will be here as I'd mentioned but Lisa will fill you in.

6:02 LisaK [Programmer]: Just walked (well, ran is more like it), in the house. Got stuck in traffic.

6:02 Cricket [Facilitator]: Hi Plum

6:02 dgirl: Hello All

6:03 Cricket [Facilitator]: Lisa - I'd told bethel & dgirl about coming to chat to meet Jim but with the holidays not sure if he'll be here tonight.

6:03 Cricket [Facilitator]: Lisa - No problem, I knew you were swamped.

6:04 sbky: cricket all.. my h came over Sunday to wake my daughter up after I had left. he wouldn’t even come in the house, he went to her bedroom window, is this good? does this maybe mean he doesn’t like the way things are?

6:04 bethel: cricket: I got a question. What do husbands consider smothering?

6:04 Cricket [Facilitator]: Bethel & dgirl - Are you feeling any better tonight. We know how difficult this journey is but I found it was so good to have support from others walking in my shoes

6:05 Swanlake: Lisa - now come on, there isn't any traffic were you live, I know I didn't spend hours in it every day for several years. I have to say, I do not miss the traffic out there. Take a breath, we knew you would be here.

6:05 dgirl: Cricket - I have good days and bad days. I had a call with Jim over the weekend and I felt better after that. H was expecting a response from me today on divorce so I emailed him, now I wait...

6:06 bethel: sbky: I think it's part of the avoidance of MLC. My h won't send mail to me at our home; he mails it to my work address

6:06 sbky: swan me and my kids went to my parents one time got there in traffic time. my kids said what is this.. I said one of the main reasons we don’t live in the city..lol

6:06 Cricket [Facilitator]: Bethel - My H complained that I was nagging him to take his vitamins and other things his Dr recommended. He also felt that he couldn't do things without me. We'd always done everything together & enjoyed the same things. As he reached mlc stages, he seemed to want more space.

6:06 LisaK [Programmer]: ALL: Jim sends his greetings and is sorry he can't be with us tonight. He's attending a Men's conference in California this week. Jim would like to welcome any new guests today and remind them to visit our chat archives. There, you can view previous chat sessions when Jim was in the chat rooms. You might find some of the questions and answers that you are seeking. Jim has asked me to encourage any newcomers to ask your questions here in the room today and hear the answers from our gifted facilitators. They have been trained by us and have experienced midlife crisis in their own marriages. We are blessed to have Cricket and Swanlake here tonight, they know Jim's answers inside and out!

6:06 dgirl: cont...I do find that reading the MLC books and being here helps along with drawing closer to God.

6:06 Cricket [Facilitator]: Hi Saam - How are you, you were really hurting last night, hope you are better.

6:06 sbky: bethel I just think if this is what he wants he should be able to walk in the house to wake up the kids

6:07 bethel: cricket: So a smothering definition is anything he can do for himself or by himself?

6:08 Cricket [Facilitator]: 6:04 sbky: It's a very good start. Any time they reach out to family and even come in your house, it's good.

6:08 sbky: cricket but he won’t come in the house. but is suppose to tomorrow to work on a bathroom remodel..

6:08 mrsmark: Hi All

6:08 BlueSky: Thanks Lisa, I must have been on autopilot while d was talking to me.

6:09 sbky: cricket I am praying it tugs at his heart and reminds him of good times

6:09 bethel: mrsmark" luv that name!

6:09 mrsmark: thanks bethel

6:09 Cricket [Facilitator]: 6:05 dgirl: Yes at first there are more bad days than good, in time there are more good days. I too found that time with the wonderful people here and learning about mlc while drawing closer to God was sooo helpful. It meant a lot that others had gone through what I had and that there were many restored marriages. Understanding so I didn't feel this was all my fault.

6:09 dgirl: All - does that work...reminding H of good times together?

6:09 Saam: Yes, I am...I have been blessed in many ways today with different programs that I have watched today. Also....my H called me this morning and he is going to come over tomorrow night for dinner...I'm so excited but I know that I have to remain calm and collected...not jump his bones like I would like to!!...

6:09 Cricket [Facilitator]: Hi Still & Mrsmark - Good to see you.

6:10 mrsmark: first time here for me

6:10 sbky: dgirl, I think we can’t do that. they would just resent it. but being in the house is not me telling him that stuff

6:10 LisaK [Programmer]: 6:05 Swanlake: I was so in a tizzy! The kids and I were at the bookstore, I was working, they were reading. We left in time to pick up Geoff and drop him off at the Toyota place to pick up his truck, where he was having in oil change done. Both kids jumped out of the van to ride home with Geoff. I think because they knew they were risking their life driving home with lead foot Lisa!

6:10 Still: Hi Cricket.

6:10 Hannah [Facilitator]: Hi everybody

6:11 Plumcrazy: Lisa--Are you OK LOL

6:11 mrsmark: hi hannah

6:11 Cricket [Facilitator]: 6:09 dgirl: Jim says that it's good when we can do subtle things that remind our H's of good times. A card with a pix (not sentimental, but light) or a joke or something that brings back good memories - this is good.

6:11 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: LisaK - oh my your gears are still running at 1000 miles a minute aren't they!

6:11 Hannah [Facilitator]: hi mrsmark glad you joined us

6:11 dgirl: thanks Cricket

6:12 Cricket [Facilitator]: 6:08 sbky: They usually avoid coming in the house as the memories are difficult... But yes working on the house will really bring good memories to him & God can use this.

6:12 bethel: saam: smart girl; just listen, really listen

6:12 Plumcrazy: ALL I was looking for a paper last nite and ran across something wrote when we were applying to be house parents of a group home 8yrs ago

6:12 mrsmark: looks like we're all pretty much in the same boat

6:12 sbky: all we are suppose to get 2 to 5 inches of snow tonight..

6:12 Cricket [Facilitator]: Mrsmark - Glad you joined us. Is this your first visit?

6:12 mrsmark: Cricket: yes it is

6:13 sbky: mrsmark .some are just farther along in the process. it is good to know other people are "surviving" this

6:13 Cricket [Facilitator]: Mrsmark - This site is Christian based marriage support group. We are here to encourage one another and share things. Jim Conway has taught us about working through midlife crisis and on our marriages.

6:13 Plumcrazy: All-I don’t remember reading it We had to tell about how we were raised ,our spouse, what we could give the kids and our proudest moments. Very nice things H said about me. How could it go from that to THIS?

6:14 mrsmark: I've read Jim & Sally's books (2 of them anyway)....no doubt about it, my H is definitely having a mlc

6:14 Cricket [Facilitator]: Mrsmark - Well I’m glad you found us. When I was new to this journey, it was SOOO helpful to find others in my shoes and learn things Jim teaches. His books were great and I realized this wasn't all my fault and there is a lot of hope. There are many in our group who have restored marriages or are restoring their marriages.

6:15 Hannah [Facilitator]: Mrsmark how long have you been in this situation?

6:15 Plumcrazy: Cricket I didn’t know if I should show H as he has been upset about Jeep. Maybe in a while

6:15 Cricket [Facilitator]: Plum - Those good thoughts are still in your H's heart and his head. He is just lost, much like helping someone through a severe illness. Patience and love will bring a healed man home with all you are learning.

6:16 Still: Cricket, We talked last night about 80% of marriages surviving MLC. What are signs that our H's are coming out of MLC? Is it gradual or all at once?

6:16 Saam: I have a question, my H has not talked to our daughter for over a month ...she is really angry and says that he doesn't care about her any more or what she is doing...I know that that is wrong, he is just afraid to talk to her. My 21 year old S...

6:16 Cricket [Facilitator]: Plum - It wouldn't hurt, but keep it light.... I'd laugh and say "Hey look what I ran across... " Keep it very light but your H is home and can handle it.

6:17 mrsmark: Hannah: 2 years. However, I just found out that H has a 35-year-old girlfriend (he's 51). I suspected, but didn't find proof until early November. He's still living here, so I don't know what that means

6:17 sbky: hello david alan

6:17 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: Happy New Year everyone.

6:17 Plumcrazy: Cricket I might not do it for a couple of weeks. I'll se how he is then

6:17 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Plumcrazy - with him being upset, it might not be the best time to show him something like that, plus he might get even more upset and consider it as an attempt to shove his past words down his throat. The time will come eventually, when you can share that with him and it will have fond memories for both of you.

6:17 mrsmark: 2 you 2, david

6:17 Hannah [Facilitator]: 6:16 Saam: It isn't unusual for them to completely involved with ow and ignore you and the children.

6:18 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: David Alan - hey guy, how have you been? Happy New Year to you too.

6:18 Cricket [Facilitator]: 6:16 Still: It is generally a gradual process but sometimes we don't have enough contact with our H's to see them working through things. There are some here who had a knock on the door & their H standing there wanting to come home. Others were contacted by their H's and they gradually worked their way home.

6:18 bethel: Cricket, Hannah: Since h filed just before holidays, I expect things to move pretty fast since no kids involved. My lawyer wants to try mediation first. My ? is, is it alright to dress a little "sexy"? Normally, I where business suits. Note word "little"

6:18 Saam: really ripped into my H the other night and I know that he doesn't want to hear the same from my D....should I tell him that he needs to email her if he won't call and explain what he is doing?

6:18 Cricket [Facilitator]: WOW - Aren't we blessed - Hi David Alan!

6:18 Plumcrazy: David Alan --Hi How are you?

6:18 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: Swan - good! Thanks!

6:18 Hannah [Facilitator]: Hi David Alan, happy new year to you too

6:19 Still: Cricket, I wonder if I will not see things as clearly since H is still living here.

6:19 Cricket [Facilitator]: ALL - For those of you who don't know David, he went thru mlc himself years ago. He left for an OW but went home & restored his marriage. He's helped us understand what these guys think.

6:19 mrsmark: david, could you come over to my house and talk to my H? haha- just kidding

6:19 Hannah [Facilitator]: bethel does your state have no fault divorce? If it doesn't you can oppose the divorce.

6:20 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: mrsmark - ;-)

6:20 Still: David, I would settle for a phone consult with my husband. My lost, lost, husband. :)

6:20 Hannah [Facilitator]: 6:18 bethel: I wouldn't wear anything too sexy

6:20 Saam: I do not know if there is OW, his brother said that there isn't one so far...my H would have told him if he was seeing someone

6:20 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: Still - a good description of him. That's what he is right now.

6:21 Hannah [Facilitator]: 6:19 Still: with him living there you have a prime opportunity to let him know you are changing and letting him see the change but the down side is you could be living on egg shells like I was. I was afraid to do anything because I got criticized all the time. Take one day at a time

6:21 Hannah [Facilitator]: 6:17 Plumcrazy: good advice

6:21 Cricket [Facilitator]: Bethel - Jim tells us that it's good to flirt & do the things we once did when dating. Men are visual and in mlc, men are more affected by our appearance. So a little sexy and flirt when you can, compliment him on his appearance when appropriate or for something he does is really good. Keep it light no matter how he reacts, don't act hurt if he doesn't seem to notice or doesn't react how you want. Just keep acting light, upbeat & friendly.

6:21 dgirl: All - will an OW make the MLC process a lot longer? I’m not aware of an OW with my H.

6:21 mrsmark: my husband told me for 2 years that there wasn't another woman...I KNEW there was, but perhaps didn't want to admit it, even to myself

6:21 sbky: david it is really nice to have someone come here who knows what the other side thinks about

6:21 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Plumcrazy - David used to be in the ESG group, however, as a part of restoring his marriage, he honored his wife's request to not have email contact with women, that includes us. We do, however, get to be honored with him from time to time here in chat.

6:22 Still: David, He has told me that he cares for me, but no longer "in love" with me for over a year. Still lives at home...just roommates. We have been together for over 20 years....just breaks my heart.

6:22 Hannah [Facilitator]: 6:17 mrsmark: Have you worked on changing yourself? If not this is a good opportunity to start and let him see the changes

6:22 bethel: Hannah: NV - no fault and can d in 2 weeks

6:22 Hannah [Facilitator]: 6:17 Plumcrazy: whatever feels good for you plum

6:22 Hannah [Facilitator]: bethel that is awful.

6:23 Still: Hannah, yes, I have worked on personal changes for 18 months. I am really beginning to like the person I am becoming. My H doesn't seem to notice at all.

6:23 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: dgirl: It's different for everyone. Not sure if you can make a one for one comparison based on circumstances like the presence of an OW.

6:23 Cricket [Facilitator]: 6:17 mrsmark: Typically these guys are drawn to women who are totally different than they are normally attracted to. It's not the woman but just being teens again. The good thing with him being home is that you can work on your appearance, flirting and complimenting your H on specific things... keep that up even if he doesn't seem to notice.

6:23 mrsmark: Hannah, yes I have. stuck my nose in the Good Book and started learning what it means to be a good wife. Problem is, I’m 52 - the OW is 35.

6:23 Hannah [Facilitator]: mrsmark but you have wisdom and experience!!!

6:24 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: Still: That's very real for him. He feels out of touch with you. Disconnected. But not just with you. He feels disconnected from all that he has known.

6:24 sbky: david, how disconnected did you get.. ?

6:25 Cricket [Facilitator]: dgirl - No the OW doesn't make it longer, it's just that typically mlcr need attention and are drawn to the fantasy of their unlived life. Their self esteem is really low and they feel unattractive/undesirable so they are very vulnerable to an OW.

6:25 mrsmark: It just gets so hard. Most days I’m ok - today was a bad day, tho. I just keep thinking, "How can he think it's ok to be living at home with his wife & having an affair at the same time - knowing that I know." It's like being punched in face daily

6:25 Still: David, I agree with you wholeheartedly. He is different in many, many ways. He is jeopardizing friendships because of his behaviors, but just gravitates to younger peer groups. It is mindboggling to me.

6:25 Saam: David..H is coming over for dinner tomorrow for the 1st time...we have only been going through this a little over an month, he just moved into an Apt. last week...I need some pointers for tomorrow night!

6:26 Plumcrazy: David _ could I ask you a question about ED?

6:26 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: Still: Very common to do things that make him feel younger. Less vulnerable to aging.

6:26 Hannah [Facilitator]: 6:21 dgirl: I don't think it makes any difference, a mlc is a mlc with or without the ow. Sometimes it is a motor cycle or a sports car.

6:27 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: Saam: I will be praying for you both. I hope your husband can move through this quicker than most.

6:27 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: Plum: Sure.

6:27 Cricket [Facilitator]: Saam - They shut out their family out of guilt and shame. All you can do is try to explain mlc to your D but she's an adult so she'll deal with it as she wants. Hopefully she'll look at some of the info on mlc &understand this really is an illness.

6:27 dgirl: Hannah - He was talking about getting a motorcycle...wish I would have encouraged him to get that. :)

6:28 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: Hannah: True. But I think things get far messier in a relationship if the OW hits the scene.

6:28 Still: David, yes...concerts, gambling, drinking (never drank before), listening to angry music, enjoying the attention of women (though he denies an OW at this point)...especially those who are stroking his ego. Like watching a bad accident in slow motion.

6:28 sbky: dgirl my h did get a motorcycle. still left

6:28 Hannah [Facilitator]: 6:25 mrsmark: and if you are nice to him it will blow his mind, so keep being the kind hearted wife and let him see the change in you.

6:28 Hannah [Facilitator]: 6:28 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: I can see where it would

6:29 Cricket [Facilitator]: Saam - You can't fix this for your H. These are things we are having to learn. It's not up to us to fix our H's or protect them. All we can do is explain mlc to our kids, try to assure them that their Dad loves them but is confused. But they are adults & will deal with this as they have to. He does avoid them though because he is afraid to face them & his guilt

6:29 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: sbky: It's not usually just one thing. Guys are trying to find a way back to the "good old days".

6:29 dgirl: David - did you file for divorce when in MLC? If so, why?

6:29 Hannah [Facilitator]: 6:20 Saam: be prepared that a mlcer is very secretive.

6:29 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: Cricket: Good words sis.

6:30 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: dgirl: No I didn't.

6:30 Plumcrazy: David--H is only 49 has been having Ed issues off and on since April 2009 Was really bad when this all started. He is also severely depressed. things have been much better since Dec of 2008. then had issues recently.

6:30 sbky: david my h never had a motorcycle but I guess it didn’t help him because I love it as much as him

6:30 mrsmark: my H is the king of secretive! never used to be at all....I look at him sometimes and wonder who he is

6:30 Still: Cricket, I have tried to talk to my H about MLC. He becomes very angry. He says it could be a small part of MLC, but mostly he just no longer has feelings for me. Feels only apathy. I quit trying to talk to him about it...hopefully he will realize it

6:30 Cricket [Facilitator]: 6:20 Saam: An OW is just a bandaid. These guys are so depressed and confused. They don't understand why they can't shake this so they start blaming the marriage. They are drawn to fantasies of teenage years, what they've missed, is life over, etc. So often they are vulnerable to women who flirt but it's just looking for a quick fix. An OW or the other things won't fix their depression, only looking inside will help - dealing with their own issues

6:31 dgirl: All - H told me in 5 weeks that he was moving on alone (didn't use the word divorce). Does this seem really fast to anyone?

6:31 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: Hannah: Secrecy is how they deal with the conflicts inside. If she doesn't know about, he doesn't have to try and explain it. Which MLC'rs don't do well - explain themselves that is.

6:31 Hannah [Facilitator]: 6:31 dgirl: He may have been thinking about it for a while.

6:31 Cricket [Facilitator]: Still - What do you mean, not see things as clearly with your H there?

6:31 Plumcrazy: David-What is best way to be supportive of him. He goes from saying he will go to DR. for it then gets upset and say he won’t

6:31 sbky: dgirl my h told me he wanted a divorce 3 years ago.. still not got one. just because they say something doesn’t mean it will happen

6:32 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: Plumb: It's not uncommon for men in their 40's. I wrestle with it and I just turned 50. It's due to an underlying medical problem.

6:32 Cricket [Facilitator]: Still - My H said the same thing - Loves me but not IN LOVE with me any longer. That we lost our connection.

6:32 Cricket [Facilitator]: Still - Many of us have heard the same thing.

6:32 sbky: david about a month ago I called to ask my h for some pics I needed of our d.. he said he couldn’t get it right then. told me who and where he was going. I was shocked..

6:32 Still: Cricket 6:31, not sure what you are referencing.

6:32 LisaK [Programmer]: 6:25 mrsmark: I've been in your same situation. In fact, many of us have, as our husbands have left, and returned home, and then continued to be in touch with the other woman while preparing to leave again. It's a rollercoaster ride. You need to stay strong in the Lord, and I highly recommend protecting yourself should you continue to have intimate relations with your husband. You know, just as much as you hate him being home and having an other woman at the same time, you should also know that the other woman hates the fact that he's home with you. This will make her quite jealous and insecure. This will cause her to be manipulative and demanding. If you can stay strong, yet sweet and innocent, continuing to make dinner, clean, love, etc., (but not be a doormat), then you'll continue to have 1-up on her. You're perfect for the book, "The Excellent Wife" by Martha Peace in your situation.

6:32 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: dgirl - Jim says the MLCer is often thinking about things for a very long time before they act on it, so what seems sudden to you, your husband may have been thinking about for several months, years even.

6:32 Saam: I know I have read many horror stories, I have been praying that Steve is staying pure and faithful to me and to have an open heart to hear the Lord...."When you ask in HIS name believing, it will be done if it is HIS WILL.

6:33 Cricket [Facilitator]: Still - WE often don't think our H notices our changes but they DO. It takes time for them to trust that our changes are real. They feel that the moment the pressure is off, we'd go back to the way we were. Some also get frustrated that we didn't make these changes until they were about to leave.

6:34 bethel: david: what do h consider smothering?

6:34 Cricket [Facilitator]: mrsmark - It helps if you put who you are talking to - you can start with ALL, or even abbreviate our chat names to make them shorter - like Cricket for me or Swan for Swanlake

6:35 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: Plum: It's difficult if he is pushing you away. If the rejection is related to the MLC rather than embarrassment over his inability to perform, then there isn't much you can do.

6:35 Hannah [Facilitator]: Hi MarySarah

6:35 Saam: That is exactly what my H said to me...he doesn't believe that I have made changes that will "stick".

6:35 Still: My H has no interest in being intimate with me at all....not for over 9 months even though he lives at home. He has told me that he can't deal with the emotions in his head and has no desire to be intimate with Anyone.

6:35 Plumcrazy: David --Any ideas for being supportive when he has those issues

6:36 MarySarah: Still here is the link to that article on free will we spoke of last night. I think You'll like it. http://www.jimdragoministries.org/jd-article-3-free-will.html

6:36 dgirl: All - is it okay to tell H that I love him, or does that smother him? If he's feeling guilty and ashamed, is it okay to reassure him that I love him and want to support him through this (but not tell him every day)...

6:36 Cricket [Facilitator]: David Alan - WE have several very new to this walk here tonight so you will be very busy - I know you can handle this but want you to know how much you are appreciated. - Your timing is great!

6:36 Plumcrazy: David, I just snuggle with him

6:36 MarySarah: Hannah! Hey dear friend, how are you?

6:36 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: bethel: different guys see it differently. If he was used to a lot of attention, he is probably going to push you away. If he wasn't, then other things, like questioning his behavior will feel smothering to him.

6:37 Still: Thank you MarySarah.

6:37 MarySarah: David Alan How are you!

6:38 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: dgirl: Yes it is... though you can do it in ways that are not just verbal.

6:38 Plumcrazy: david-thank you for answering our question I always feel blessed when you are here to answer questions

6:38 bethel: david: thx

6:38 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: Cricket: That's ok. I don't mind. :-)

6:38 Still: David Alan, I have always been very affectionate with my H. Pre-MLC he was very responsive. Now, he jumps if I get near him at all. I hugged him on Thanksgiving and he looked at me like I had stabbed him. Can you give me insight on this?

6:38 Cricket [Facilitator]: 6:30 mrsmark: They are so confused and struggling with fantasies and fighting depression that they hide these feelings from us. It scares them and they don't like what they're feeling &they are also scared to share it with us.

6:38 Plumcrazy: sorry can’t type

6:38 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: Mary: Good - thanks!

6:39 Plumcrazy: David@6;36- You are exactly right about that! I see it with H

6:40 MarySarah: David Alan, tonight the counselor the kids & I saw said to me that the moments when my H corners me & starts gushing & acting out over everything & anything are the moments of breakthrough & reminded me be calm port in storm even if hurts, to remain

6:40 Still: Cricket/David, Do they have to come to the realization that it is an internal struggle in order to find the love they once had? Do all find it?

6:40 Plumcrazy: marySarah-Hello

6:40 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: Still: I assume he is feeling vulnerable when you try to get too close to him. It threatens his attempts to "isolate" himself so he can do and say things without feeling guilty about the damage it may do to any connections between you.

6:40 Cricket [Facilitator]: 6:30 Still: We can NOT tell them they are in mlc. It does make them angry. They feel that we're trying to fix them and refuse to see the areas that we need to work on in ourselves. They have to justify themselves that we are the problem & cause of their depression & confusion. We can't fix our h's, we can only work on us, flirt, compliment them in specific ways & show them our changes are real so they will be drawn to us

6:41 MarySarah: David cont Calm, consistent, No walls, but good boundaries & as silent as possible & listen to feelings behind what seems to be the attack. Does that sound reasonable to you?

6:41 Hannah [Facilitator]: 6:40 Still: A very few don't go through all the stages and their life is in turmoil. It is all explained in Jim's book - the different stages. They have to go through all the stages to come out of it\

6:41 Still: David, wow you have really helped to solidify some of the things I have been thinking. My H has told me that he doesn't want to "give me hope" that things will work out. Did you feel this way and then have your feelings restored?

6:41 MarySarah: Plum hello darling!

6:41 Plumcrazy: David@6;40 WOW thanks for that info explains a lot!

6:42 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: Still: They have to go through all the stages in my humble opinion. Hopefully the relationship is still intact by the time they do.

6:42 Cricket [Facilitator]: 6:36 dgirl: It's okay to say you love them, but don't over do it. Jim said telling them they are a good H or father won't work. We need to compliment them when they do something specific, fix something or help a kid with homework, or if they look especially nice. Otherwise they dismiss compliments as just words. We need to show them we are willing to make changes &work on us.

6:42 Hannah [Facilitator]: 6:36 dgirl: sometimes it is better not to mention love but be supportive

6:42 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: Mary: I think that sounds fine.

6:42 Still: Hannah, I have read the stages over and over in Jim's book. I know that my H has been in replay for a year or more. Sometimes I think he teeters on others, but seems to go right back. I know this is also characteristic.

6:42 sbky: cricket that is hard to do when they are gone. but God had a plan

6:43 Hannah [Facilitator]: 6:31 dgirl: my h told me he didn't want anything to do with family or marriage, he wanted out.

6:43 Cricket [Facilitator]: 6:41 Still: Yes I believe all of us have heard that. They don't want to give false hope, etc. They notice our changes but are afraid to comment. That's why it's important that we keep upbeat, don't let their negative reactions show on us... we remain steady and consistent.

6:43 sbky: all I don’t know if I shared this. my h had been working for my sister a few weeks ago. Friday he went to pick up the rest of his tools and stayed for 4 hours visiting..

6:43 MarySarah: Still from cricket @ 6:40 that is soooo on there. I've learned even a book conveniently lying around or even simple kindness will still make them feel manipulated, even if we don't expect in return. If we are kind esp when they are @ worst, it pokes

6:44 Cricket [Facilitator]: Wow - Poor David really was kept busy, we didn't get to ask him how things are going with he and his wife

6:44 sbky: cricket he said he would be right back

6:44 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: Still: Yes I did. It was a miserable time. And so darn crazy.

6:45 Hannah [Facilitator]: 6:43 sbky: wonderful sbky. We are the last person they connect with. They usually connect with kids and family before us.

6:45 MarySarah: Still cont holes in their stories & takes away there justifications as cricket says We have to be their enemy because Bible says NO man hates own flesh, but nourishes & cherishes it, yet our H's are living in the flesh under enemy's spirit & have to hate

6:45 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: Hannah: I said the same thing to my wife.

6:45 Still: David and now, are you in a much better place with your wife? Were you able to see the pain she was in during that time. Sorry, if I am bombarding...just so many questions I have.

6:45 Hannah [Facilitator]: David Allan how are things with you and your wife

6:46 Cricket [Facilitator]: Still - Most of the mlcrs work through mlc and yes they have to reach a point of looking inside & being willing to face the things they've buried. They say about 80%of these guys reach a point that they want to come home although some spouses have moved on or put up walls where it’s not possible

6:46 MarySarah: Still cont us. If can't hate selves, or us because we are part them, they have to tear us apart from them so they can dissociate from us & hate us not selves. They avoid consequences for a season only!

6:46 Hannah [Facilitator]: David Allan this is a nice surprise you being in chat tonight because Jim is usually answering the questions for us all and he can't make it tonight.

6:47 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: Still: Yes - and I mourned over it once I made it through all the fog.

6:47 Still: MarySarah, please explain "They avoid consequences for a season only"

6:47 Cricket [Facilitator]: Still - David has shared how terrible he's felt for the pain he caused his wife. He worked very hard to regain her trust. He comes here to help in his way to give back.

6:47 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: Hannah: We are still dealing with things... but at least we have clear heads to do so now.

6:47 Hannah [Facilitator]: MAS how are you doing tonight?

6:48 sbky: david how long you been home

6:48 Still: David, I just told my IC today. I pray that my H will be able to deal with the pain he has caused the person who loved him the most. I fear it may drive him away more than any of his current behaviors.

6:48 MarySarah: David woo hoo! See you are very special you get to wear the blue royal robe of wisdom! LOL Seriously, if I may speak for others here, we are grateful for the facilitators & their time, talent, willingness to share & comfort! : )

6:48 bethel: cricket: please define " put up walls"

6:49 dgirl: 6:48 MarySarah I second that...thanks to all!

6:49 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: 6:46 Hannah: Wondered why I felt led to pop in. :-)

6:49 Hannah [Facilitator]: Hi Jo,

6:49 Cricket [Facilitator]: Bethel - Sometimes in our pain, we lash out at our H's and say and do things that are very hard to recover from. Some who are hurting tell their h's they can't forgive them, no longer love them and other things that "put up walls" and make it hard to come home.

6:49 Still: David, I really, really appreciate your candor and willingness to answer our questions. Thank you!

6:50 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: 6:48 sbky: It's been almost 10 years now. Can you believe it?

6:50 MAS: Hannah: Hi Hannah. Thanks for asking. Just had argument over the phone with H right before chat. He called and just hit me out of the blue with his nasty attitude... It was totally unexpected so am a little shaken up.

6:50 MarySarah: Still 6:47 My H always had tendency go & go, prove & prove, do & do, have & have more. With MLC all that got worse & seemed like complete pride & greed. It's a cover, they try to fill voids & avoid pain, esp if do something wrong. Sin is only fun

6:50 Plumcrazy: David- WOW !!!!! PTL!!!!!

6:51 sbky: david that is great. my h moved out 3 1/2 years ago. see him a lot because I live next to my in-laws. and the kids. but he has recently started being nicer. very tiny things but there

6:51 bethel: cricket: like telling them to never contact me again? He did even though I did not respond

6:51 Jo2: Hannah - Hello there! I see on the weather updates that you have a lot of cold and snow where you are. I hope it will not last too long for you. I’m a bit tired of our cold -- 30s.

6:51 Plumcrazy: MAS----HUGS Sorry you had to endure that

6:51 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: 6:49 Cricket: - that's an important point. If they have been completely pushed away, they will often not attempt to reconcile when the time comes.

6:51 MarySarah: Still cont for a season & we can't avoid, cover up, or run from conflict, ourselves or consequences forever & certainly can't run & hide from God Hope that makes sense

6:52 Still: MarySarah 6:50 Is your H still doing all that stuff?

6:52 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: 6:48 Still: I pray for that too. May his heart heal fully when he gets through this. And yours as well.

6:52 Still: MarySarah 6:51 Yes, it does thanks.

6:52 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: 6:49 Still: Y/W. :-)
(y/w = your welcome)

6:52 MarySarah: Bethel 6:49 look up Alan Jackson's song tonight I climbed the wall. It's appropriate

6:53 sbky: david and cricket I am afraid of those walls.. afraid moving forward and showing him I am ok maybe saying stay away. but I suppose to show him I am fine without him

6:53 MarySarah: David 6:50 PTL

6:53 Cricket [Facilitator]: Bethel - Some of the things we say in anger can make it difficult for them to know they can come home. But the thins you mentioned can be overcome. It's very important that you don't let him push your buttons to where you lose your temper & say things you don't mean. Now you can work on showing him you are here for him.

6:53 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: 6:51 sbky: That's a good sign that he's moving forward now.

6:53 BlueSky: David, when you said those dreaded words that we have all heard..."I don't love you anymore", does the mlc man really mean it?

6:54 bethel: cricket: he filed for d after I wouldn't respond. Is there hope?

6:54 Still: Thank you, David. I am still full of hope and forgiveness. I have never felt led to give up in nearly 2 years. I know he hurts...it is evident in his face, his actions, his mindless computer gaming.....

6:54 MarySarah: Mas 6:50 so sorry for that. I pray H can no longer push your buttons & for you to have peace of Christ, knowing He will fight & win for you, protect & care for you & convict H. May you have that meek & gentle spirit & assurance of God as well!

6:54 Cricket [Facilitator]: 6:53 sbky: You don't want him to come home only because you can't make it alone, you want him to come home because he loves you and want to be there. Jim teaches us that these guys can't take us being needy and smothering. WE want a partnership so showing him you love him enough to grow & deal with things while giving him the space to work this thru is an act of love.

6:55 MAS: Plumcrazy: Thank you so much. I am trying very hard to stay calm.

6:55 Plumcrazy: Still@6:54 Mindless computer gaming? WOW?

6:55 bethel: cricket: things have move so fast and h keeping pushing and bullying me. G finally is getting though to me.

6:55 Jo2: David Alan - It is so good to see you tonight. You're a great facilitator!

6:55 sbky: cricket I am afraid I have put up walls though when I was trying to show I am fine without him..

6:56 Cricket [Facilitator]: 6:54 bethel: There is always hope. When you didn't respond, and told him never to contact you again, he felt there was no hope. Now is the time to pray, reach out to him and show him you can forgive him.

6:56 Hannah [Facilitator]: 6:53 sbky: I think a few of us have the problem that our h think they have put us through hell and they don't deserve to come back to be a family again so we have to pray that God will break down that barrier.

6:56 Still: Plumcrazy....yes he has a PhD and he plays a game where he matches colored balls by the hour.

6:56 Cricket [Facilitator]: Bethel/All - If you haven't seen the movie Fireproof, it really shows a couple facing divorce & one of them fighting to save their marriage. It shows the Love Dare process & is a good example.

6:56 MarySarah: Still 6:52 Oh yes. No body was really there for H & he grew up abandoned yet doing whatever he wished. He's amazingly charming man, but it helps him get what wants but with many indulging & enabling people don't grow. Very sad But God will make new!

6:57 Hannah [Facilitator]: Hi steadfast

6:57 bethel: cricket , david 6:56 like how reach out?

6:57 sbky: hannah if my h is my h again and listens to his heart he will know. I will be here..

6:57 MAS: MarySarah: Thank you so much.

6:57 Still: Cricket, the only thing my H could come up with in marital counseling that was the reason for wanting "out" is that I was "too needy". Strange as I am an extremely independent, career woman.

6:57 Plumcrazy: Still-that game seems familiar.

6:58 Cricket [Facilitator]: Bethel - I bet God led you to this site and hopefully can learn the things Jim teaches to turn this around.

6:58 MarySarah: sbky 6:53 being too vulnerable isn't good either right now. healthy boundaries are different than walls!

6:58 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: 6:53 BlueSky: IN his mind, yes. But remember, his mind isn't sound right now. He is confused and struggling for a way out.

6:58 LisaK [Programmer]: EVERYONE - Wow, we are really blessed to have not just our great facilitators here tonight to cover for Jim, but to also have David Alan, live and in person, to share his midlife journey experiences. He has been most kind to jump in and answer so many questions for us tonight. PLEASE - do start to wind down, ask your last question for the night, and start to say your goodbyes. I don't want to keep our volunteer facilitators, or David Alan, from whatever they need to get back to in their own lives tonight. Thank you for understanding. Feel free to come back on Wednesday night for the next chat session.

6:58 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: 6:55 Jo2: (((((Jo)))))

6:59 Cricket [Facilitator]: 6:55 bethel: If you can call him or email/text - to send a nice message... I’m not sure what your situation is but friendly connections really help.

6:59 Hannah [Facilitator]: 6:57 sbky: I am sure that is what God wants us to be

6:59 MarySarah: sbky & all I like what cricket said there about act of love. 1 cor 13 always comes to mind to me now reminding me how to act

6:59 BlueSky: Cricket, all: I found last week a Love Dare devotional at Costco/Sams. Didn't know it was out. So there is a series of books now affiliated with the movie.

6:59 sbky: marysarah I hope that is what I have set. not stone walls.. but if God has a plan he will break through those too

6:59 Still: MarySarah, 6:56 how interesting. My H was in numerous broken homes until his mother moved out and left him alone at 16 to go with his now stepfather. He grew up so fast. By 19, he and I were engaged. Never really had a childhood.

7:00 BlueSky: David, thank you

7:00 Still: Plumcrazy...the game is Zuma.

7:00 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: 6:56 MarySarah: Amen!

7:00 Hannah [Facilitator]: goodnight all, take care and happy Tuesday.

7:00 PM PACIFIC TIME - TIME TO CLOSE DOWN FOR THE NIGHT. PLEASE, NO MORE QUESTIONS SO THAT OUR FACILITATORS CAN REPLY TO YOU AND SAY GOODBYE AS WELL. THEY ALWAYS FEEL BAD IF THEY DON'T GET TO FINISH EVERYONE'S QUESTIONS AND SAY GOOD BYE TO EVERYONE.

7:00 Cricket [Facilitator]: 6:57 Still: They are depressed and so confused, they think leaving us will help them feel good again. They struggle to find excuses to justify their actions. Mine said I was smothering & over nurturing. I had several months to work on things after he said this in counseling & did. He still moved out but admitted that I'd really made changes. He then said it was too late, said it was his fault for not telling me sooner but that we'd lost our connection. They are confused.

7:01 sbky: goodnight all.

7:01 MarySarah: Hannah 6:56 I know from things H said too that he may feel he's been so unkind that he is failure & can't come back too hard. So ow is chance start over & not mess up again way prove self , can do it better than parents & isn't hurting kids, etc....

7:01 Cricket [Facilitator]: David Alan - THANKS SO MUCH - I know you have a busy life & appreciate your coming to share with us.

7:01 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: 7:00 BlueSky: Y/W

7:01 Plumcrazy: Nite SBKY TAKE CAREA

7:01 Jo2: ((((( ALL )))))) Blessings to you until Wednesday night. Thank you Cricket, Swanlake, David Alan and Lisa for all you do. Good night ...

7:01 sbky: david we do love are regular ladies but it is great to hear from someone who has been through what our h's are .. thank you so much

7:01 MarySarah: MAS 6:57 no probs dear luv ya! : )

7:01 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: 7:01 Cricket: My pleasure. Be blessed - all!

7:01 Plumcrazy: Jo Good nite

7:02 Cricket [Facilitator]: Still - I'd really get back to work on the Love Dare program since your H is home. I know you tried it for 10 days but I'd give it another try.

7:02 Still: I am seeking another copy. I will go forward for the whole 40 days this time.

7:02 bethel: all: great chat tonight. thx everyone and have a good nite

7:02 Plumcrazy: Cricket maybe I should try the Love Dare

7:02 Still: Thank you!

7:02 LisaK [Programmer]: Heavenly Father, thank You so much, Lord, for sending us David Alan tonight, to replace Jim in the chat room tonight. It's amazing Lord how you meet our needs and provide for our chat room guests so perfectly. Thank you for our Facilitators here tonight, and their willingness to jump in and cover for Jim as well. Watch over and protect those here tonight, and anyone who reads this chat session. Bless them with your peace and grace. Thank You Lord for this place and this time. In Jesus' Name, Amen.

7:02 Cricket [Facilitator]: sbky - YES I agree - we love it when David joins us. As you know, I've saved many of his emails and share them with new members because no one can understand like a man who's been there

7:03 Cricket [Facilitator]: Plum - YES - your H is home, it would be a good time to try

7:03 Plumcrazy: David--Goodnite and thank you so much!!!!\

7:03 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Amen and in agreement with the blessing of having David Alan here with us tonight.

7:03 Cricket [Facilitator]: AMEN - Thank you Lisa

7:03 Swanlakejgs [Facilitator]: Goodnight all, see you later this week

7:03 MarySarah: Still My H much same, but he was little older when we married. Not so much chance be kid I think, more the pain & lack role models of good character. I was very grown up & more adult as teen than H. He's always had lots play time, no good models thou

7:03 Plumcrazy: AMEN

7:04 MAS: MarySarah: Love you too, sweetie. :)

7:04 BlueSky: Lisa, Amen, good proof that God is working

7:04 LisaK [Programmer]: "'Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?' Jesus answered, 'I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times'" (Matthew 18:21-22).

7:04 Cricket [Facilitator]: All - it's time to close, remember to pray for one another after chat

7:05 Plumcrazy: Goodnite Everyone take care

7:05 MarySarah: Lisa K 7:04 Amen, Amen!

7:06 Cricket [Facilitator]: Good night all. have a good week.

7:07 MAS: Goodnight everyone. Have a great evening.

7:07 MarySarah: Still 7:02 I second that Finish the love Dare & take it into your very spirit! Amen your H is home. How long again & was there ow? was H angry all time or hateful?

7:07 MarySarah: Goodnight all!

7:08 MarySarah: Cricket I got in late was saam feeling any better tonight, pray so! PTL Still's H is home guess I forgot that! Goodnight & God bless!

7:09 MAS: MarySarah: Saam's husband was coming for dinner tomorrow night.

7:10 MAS: MarySarah: She was happy about that.

7:10 MarySarah: MAS Amen, I will pray for leading of Holy Spirit in both them & healing miracles!

7:11 MAS: Amen.

6:53 BlueSky: David, when you said those dreaded words that we have all heard..."I don't love you anymore", does the mlc man really mean it?

6:58 David Alan [Special Guest Facilitator]: 6:53 BlueSky: IN his mind, yes. But remember, his mind isn't sound right now. He is confused and struggling for a way out.

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