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July 12, 2010 / with Jim Conway

6:31 MarySarah: Jim & David, recently I set some matter of fact, sort of stern boundaries with my H re picking up & dropping off kids, as my H still thinks I must go along with all he wants (did that 25yrs.) I stayed calm & stated what I was willing to do, he hung 2X & later called back & compromised about meeting me few mi away his house. I will not be exposed to his AW making out with him in front of me if I pick up our kids. Trouble is he planned another vacation he "told" me about ahead time, but had planned it ahead so as to leave on "my weekend" He still expects to ALWAYS get his way as he has for years. I want to say no even though he is acting a bit less cruel. I can't trust it's for any reason but to get his way.

6:35 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:31 MarySarah: Boundaries are good to set, but remember that the Bible teaches us that we are to not be vindictive or punishing as we set these things. The Bible phrase is "speak the truth in love". It is a difficult thing to begin to establish boundaries when it has not been a couple's experience earlier in their marriage. I encourage you to read some of the Boundary Books by Townsend and Cloud. They will give you some guidance in this process.


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July 12, 2010 / Monday Chat with Jim 6-7 pm PST / CR#2

6:05 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: To everyone in the room, as you know our summertime office is our home in Sunset from Jim and Jan's Michigan homeNo. Michigan on the edge of a lake, it's an ideal location, and the sun is just starting to set over the hills across the lake. I'll have Lisa post a photo of our sunset in the chat.

6:09 Swanlake: Jim - I have a praise/question, I guess that’s what you would call it. I got an email from my husband’s oldest sister today and she turned her computer on this morning to an email from her brother. She was shocked since she hasn’t heard from him since his mother’s funeral in 2001 and the last words they had were strained. She isn’t sure if he is just catching up or if he wants to reconnect with his siblings, but it was out of the blue. She wrote me because we are friends and visit with each other a few times a year; she feels loyalty to me and didn't want to contact him back if it would offend me. I gave her the green light and told her they are two separate relationships for now. She is so happy to hear from him. Question - I believe this might be a positive thing for him, is it?

6:13 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:09 Swanlake: It is encouraging that he is trying to connect with people. This is a positive sign of growth on his part.

6:11 Cricket2: Hi Free to Fly, Koko, Cinder, Ro828, MAS & Swan - good to see everyone

6:12 MAS: Cricket: Hi Cricket. How are you today?

6:12 Free to fly: Hello everyone

6:13 Cricket2: All - I've been struggling with Firefox on and off all day....frustrating as I got an error code after doing a routine update & can't seem to fix it... I had to secure my weapon as I'd been ready to shoot my computer....lol

6:15 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:13 Cricket2: You're free to do that! lol

6:13 MAS: Hi Free to fly, Ro828, everyone.

6:13 Cricket2: MAS - Except for being frustrated with computer issues, I'm good.

6:13 Swanlake: Cricket - you know I can actually picture that @ 6:13

6:14 MAS: Cricket: Funny, me too! Have had problems all day yesterday and today. I was getting ready to throw mine right out the window! LOL

6:14 Free to fly: Dr Jim: H has not contacted us, well the kids for one week is that normal? Also someone called the house Saturday morning, almost 2 am and didn't say anything at first but then sang a silly song and hung up, that's the first. It sounded like H but I'm not sure.

6:20 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:14 Free to fly: It may be your husband trying to make some initial contacts, much the same as grade school kids will hit each other to show affection. Just continue praying for him.

6:15 Ro828: HI All.

6:15 Cricket2: MAS - Wow isn't it the worst.... if I could talk to a live person (who speaks English) it would help but NOOOO...

6:15 Free to fly: Hey MAS

6:15 MAS: Ro828: How are you doing this evening?

6:15 MAS: Free: How was your day?

6:16 Cricket2: Jim - I had to keep reminding myself that my computer wasn't the problem & I didn't want to buy a new one....but it was a good thing Firefox wasn't sitting in front of me, I might have had more trouble restraining myself... lol

6:17 Ro828: Cricket: I know with some of these companies you can actually ask to be transferred back to the states to speak to an English speaking person. Lots of companies have this; they just don't want you to know.

6:17 Cricket2: Jim - That sounds beautiful... I remember pix of that area from your wedding if I remember right?

6:22 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: Cricket @ 6:17, yes - that's right. They are also posted on my Facebook.

6:17 MAS: Cricket@6:15: Believe me, I know what you mean! I think my blood pressure must have skyrocketed between yesterday and today! I think if I had a weapon, I would have shot my screen out too!

6:17 Ro828: MAS: 6:15. Doing well. How about yourself. Anything new?

6:17 Free to fly: MAS: It was quiet, had the day off. Did a lot of reading in the morning but relaxed for the rest of the day. How about you, how's everything going?

6:18 Free to fly: Dr. Jim: Sounds beautiful

6:18 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: Welcome to KOKO AND DAVID ALAN. Thanks for joining us tonight.

6:18 David Alan [Facilitator]: Glad to be here Jim.

6:19 Ro828: Cricket: Yeap...that's aggravating. No such thing as customer service anymore. Sad.

6:19 Free to fly: David: When you were in MLC did you ever think of your W?

6:19 cinder: Dr Conway: My H is in MLC I think about 3-4 yrs now, OW #2. Now dead set on divorce, has only known this person a few months, she is several states away, we have a daughter, 12. Have tried to maintain contact, he is very hostile. What to do--

6:25 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:19 cinder: Glad you're here in the chat room. Sorry to hear about your stress. Let me ask you how you are doing in the three areas that midlife men complain about. 1. Midlife Men complain that their wives are naggy, controlling, and often boss them around like children (sometimes men do act like children). 2. Midlife Men complain that their wives are overweight, out of shape, and do not care about physical appearance. Men are very visual, & when their wife looks good to them, that translates that she is interested in sex. A high priority in a man’s life is regular, exciting sex for which he doesn’t have to beg. 3. Midlife Men complain that their wives have not had a new thought since they got married. They complain that their wives are not growing intellectually or in their careers, which makes them very dependent and clingy -- which is often negative to a midlife man. How are you doing in these three areas?

6:19 David Alan [Facilitator]: Hi Cindy. :-)

6:19 Free to fly: Hey Still/CindyJ

6:19 Cricket2: MAS - YES VERY Tempting but I wanted the bullet to go to FIREFOX and especially the 2nd Tech that told me to switch to different browser & then close the original one. I asked if I'd lose him & he said NO... WRONG

6:19 CindyJ: Hi David Alan and everyone

6:20 MAS: Free to fly: Good, except for my computer, as in Cricket's case. Have been keeping busy at home and running errands...There's always something that needs to be done.

6:20 Still: Hi Everyone.

6:20 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:19 Free to fly: Yes I did...

6:20 Free to fly: MAS/Cricket: Computer problems are the worst:)

6:21 MAS: Ro828: Good. It would be even better if the temperature would go down a bit.

6:21 koko: Jim. How are you. Pretty good weekend. When W is around friends she always says positive things about me. Changes when we get home. should I reassure her that I still love her or should I just hang in tough. I am showing her love by actions

6:26 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:21 koko: Keep on affirming her and make sure you don't come across as a needy, dependant man.

6:21 Free to fly: Dr Jim: Thanks, I will continue to pray for him.

6:22 David Alan [Facilitator]: Cricket - good to see you tonight. :-)

6:22 Still: Dr. C. I'm glad to be able to talk with you. I basically got "the speech" for the 3rd time a week ago Friday. H says just doesn't want to do this anymore, wants to end it. Since then (just like last two times), he is kind, doing me favors...thoughts?

6:22 cinder: Dr Conway: Also H lives, works 2 hours away, it is getting to where he hardly calls my daughter anymore except when it is his weekend--should I not push him?

6:28 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:22 cinder: talk to me about how you are doing in the 3 areas that I mentioned.

6:23 Cricket2: All - I need to leave to take care of something. Will try to check back later. Have a good night.

6:23 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:22 Still: He's struggling - still.

6:23 Free to fly: DA: I know this sounds crazy but good thoughts or bad ones:) He shows no feelings for me, he's like iron.

6:23 MAS: Cricket@6:19: Extremely FRUSTRATING, I know!

6:24 Still: David, He has never left our home. He is acting like he never said any of those words. Telling me where he is going. We have a big vacation this week and he is communicating non-stop about all the details. What is going on with him?

6:24 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:23 Free to fly: In my experience, it changed as I got further along in the process. Initially thinking about her just drove me to push away harder - but in time that began to change.

6:24 Free to fly: Still @6:22 That must be so frustrating. Keep praying my friend, you can do this!

6:25 Still: Free, Thanks. I pray and pray and pray. God stays beside me, but it still is such a difficult journey.

6:26 Ro828: David: 6:24. What do you mean by "just drove me to push away harder". Did you run so you wouldn't have to think about her? As you worked thru things is that when you began to think about her more?

6:27 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:24 Still: I know I said a lot of things during my worst times that I really didn't recall later - and only my wife repeating them to me brought them back. Other times I didn't want to remember. After the anger subsided, shame started to set in and it was hard to face.

6:27 MAS: Free@6:20: You've got that right! Especially if you had planned to spend the day working on it!

6:27 Free to fly: Still: Amen it is a difficult journey. Just yesterday I prayed to God for his help and guidance.

6:28 Still: David, He did tell me that all the little things I do for him drive him crazy with guilt. So, I stopped catering. Started treating him as an equal with household tasks, etc.. I don't know if that is helping or not.

6:29 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:26 Ro828: Yes - I focused on things that made me feel happy. My wife did not make me feel happy. In fact, I grew hypersensitive to all the things she was NOT doing that I thought she should.

6:29 MarySarah: Hey Dr. Conway & David A., thanks for being here to help us all tonight

6:29 cinder: Dr. Conway; Not good I must say. My dad died and I spent nearly a year in probate out of state, (only child) had to close out house etc. then bought new house for a new start. H went back and forth moved back in to old one, bought a Harley, rarely helps us, hangs out with best friend from high school, I am overwhelmed and have been he has no sympathy

6:32 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:29 cinder: I would like you to interact with the 3 things I mentioned specifically. How are you doing in each of the 3 areas.

6:31 Ro828: David 6:29. Just to clarify. You really didn't think about her while in the fog but as you worked thru things you began thinking of her more? Did you ever leave the house?

6:31 MarySarah: Jim & David, recently I set some matter of fact, sort of stern boundaries with my H re picking up & dropping off kids, as my H still thinks I must go along with all he wants (did that 25yrs.) I stayed calm & stated what I was willing to do, he hung 2X & later called back & compromised about meeting me few mi away his house. I will not be exposed to his AW making out with him in front of me if I pick up our kids. Trouble is he planned another vacation he "told" me about ahead time, but had planned it ahead so as to leave on "my weekend" He still expects to ALWAYS get his way as he has for years. I want to say no even though he is acting a bit less cruel. I can't trust it's for any reason but to get his way.

6:35 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:31 MarySarah: Boundaries are good to set, but remember that the Bible teaches us that we are to not be vindictive or punishing as we set these things. The Bible phrase is "speak the truth in love". It is a difficult thing to begin to establish boundaries when it has not been a couple's experience earlier in their marriage. I encourage you to read some of the Boundary Books by Townsend and Cloud. They will give you some guidance in this process.

6:31 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:28 Still: Probably best at this time. Keep things as light as you can. Try to focus on those things that bring you joy and keep finding simple ways to show him what he's missing. But don't make him feel more pressured than he already does.

6:32 Free to fly: Hey ndak: How's it going?

6:33 Still: David @ 6:31. I didn't realize it was pressure. I do things because I love him. He saw it as constant reminders that he doesn't feel the way I do (the way he thinks he should). Oddly, today he actually went to the store to pick up something I needed.

6:33 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:31 Ro828: Yes - at first thinking about her simply made me more determined to escape. As I moved through the process, I honestly started to think about all the things she brought to me. Mind you - it took time.

6:33 David Alan [Facilitator]: Ro - No, I didn't leave the house.

6:33 MAS: David Alan: I know you've mentioned this before, but how many years were you in MLC? Also, did you wife actively do things that brought you back to her emotionally again, things that made you want to restore your marriage?

6:34 cinder: Dr C: Need to change all of them but still feel overwhelmed

6:37 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:34 cinder: these areas are common complaints from men about their wives. Sometimes men will use the lack of the wife's progress in changing as a permission/excuse for them to get involved in affairs, etc. Remember it's not your fault that he is going through this time, but I'm sure that you want to do all that you can to help him get to the other side.

6:34 Swanlake: David Alan - I told Jim at the beginning of chat, but wanted to tell you, my husband sent his oldest sister an email this morning, he hasn't had any contact with her since Mar 2001. She is so happy, has wanted to reconnect but their last contact was less than friendly. I am glad he is at least reaching out even if he ducks back into the tunnel.

6:35 Free to fly: Dr Jim: Is there any reason why some men feel they need to leave the house?

6:40 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:35 Free to fly: Most midlife men feel they need a retreat cave and often a section of the house can be identified as his special area. Frequently this will be enough space so that a man doesn't feel that he needs to run away to find quiet.

6:35 Ro828: David; Just thinking out loud here but I wonder if the same process works for the WS who leaves. Interesting.

6:35 Ro828: Free: 6:35. Excellent question!

6:35 David Alan [Facilitator]: Start to finish - about 3 years. But the worst of it was during an 18 month window...

6:36 MarySarah: Jim & David, is it so bad to simply state to H that I feel he obligated me to say yes again by talking about this with kids before me & that I feel manipulated & just don't wish to say it's ok since he assumed it would be ok?

6:42 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:36 MarySarah: Frequently, parents will use their children as a way to manipulate each other. When that comes up again, simply say that this is something that we need to talk about in private.

6:36 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:35 Dr. Jim Conway: Powerfully true.

6:37 Free to fly: Ro828: Thanks. I just can't believe he left us. It was so traumatic for all of us especially the kids

6:37 Still: David, May I ask if there was any affection towards your wife during the 18-month window? I know many spouses of MLC'ers who say the affection continues. All affection ceased in my house shortly after the speech.

6:37 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:35 Swanlake: He probably feels like the mole in the 'wack-a-mole' game.

6:37 koko: David. any children?

6:37 MarySarah: Swan 6:34 PTL Swan that is great. Can't wait till he reconnects back home where he belongs!

6:38 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:37 Still: To be blunt, no. And I wounded her terribly during this time.

6:38 cinder: Dr C: Yes but is there still a chance? He filed--but nothing settled yet except separation

6:43 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:38 cinder: There is a strong chance of reconciliation, frequently a mate will file for divorce hoping to pressure their mate to follow through on some changes, so the key is not so much the divorce proceedings, but is the couple changing enough to meet each other's needs?

6:38 Free to fly: Still @ 6:37 If it’s any consolation 2 months after the speech in my house my H was going:(

6:39 Ro828: Free: 6:37. Yeap. I'll never forget the day my H left. Never in a billion years would I think he would. Especially for the kind of woman he left to be with. I still don't understand it and probably never will.

6:39 Still: David @ 6:37. Thank you for being candid. I look at my h and wonder if we will ever be able to hug or hold hands or anything the way we frequently did. It is scary to feel that way.

6:39 Free to fly: 6:38 I mean gone!

6:39 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:37 koko: Three. All were in their pre-teens.

6:39 Swanlake: MarySarah - thanks, but I am also realistic and know that his contact with his siblings may take along time, he may back slide some too and any connecting with me may still be years away. But it is all in God's hands. Did make me praise HIM though.

6:39 MarySarah: Jim 6:35 Yes, I am generally NOT the retaliating type, but my H has always had whatever he wanted & acts as though I am still @ his mercy & here to make his life easy with his AW & yet I am to not have any say with our kids that reside here. When I was flat out matter of fact & stated that he would be the leader of this family no question if he were here, but that I felt since he does not wish for me to be his wife, then the conveniences that come with that don't exist. I still hear " you have to" a lot. When I explained I was protecting myself from watching his mistress make out with him the one time I picked up a child & that I would compromise with him esp. if not backed into corner & made statement about leader, etc. he said, " you mean if I came home tomorrow, you would take me back?" I simply said yes. A dear friend said no matter what his tone saying that, it crossed his mind & I planted a seed Thoughts on that?

6:48 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:39, MarySarah: I think you have taken a very reasonable stand, and probably surprising your husband that you are able to be this strong. He will need time to adjust to this new you. But make sure that you are also working on the areas that he may not have thought of as positive in your relationship. Most midlife men appreciate stronger women, but they do not like obnoxious women, so state your boundaries in clear, firm, and gentle ways. I want to encourage you, that you said the right thing, but I also want you to know that it is important that you go through some kind of counseling to make sure that the problems are resolved which caused this problem in the first place - so that this doesn't happen again.

6:40 Still: Free, I know. I'm sorry. This stuff is so incredibly hard.

6:40 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:39 Dr. Jim Conway: Boundaries in Marriage is a great place to start.

6:40 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:39 Still: If it's any value - I can't keep my hands off mine now. :-)

6:41 MAS: David Alan: Did you see the other part of my question? Did your wife do anything either consciously or unconsciously to help change your mind about your marriage? Did you ever consider divorce during this time?

6:41 ndakmom: Hi Free to Fly- just playing catch up. I'm doing well.

6:42 Free to fly: 6:40 David Alan/Still: Those were kind words and worth looking forward to.

6:42 Still: David @ 6:40. That is of great value. I just miss my H so much. We are essentially housemates. Weird to be living with someone and still be incredibly lonely.

6:43 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:41 MAS: We had a lot of back and forth, but divorce was always the big elephant in the room until I finally made a choice to walk away from the OW. My wife reached the point where she had given up and was making plans to live on her own. She was not very far away from calling it quits.

6:43 Free to fly: Ro828@6:39: me either

6:43 koko: David. your situation sounds identical to my W situation. I am praying for same results. how did your W help you through this

6:44 Still: David, I have never found any evidence of an OW.....many fabricated thoughts, but not tangible evidence. Most people know if there is an OP. If you don't mind me asking, did your wife know about OW?

6:44 ndakmom: still- @6:37 all affection ended with my H when he gave me the speech and left as well, it wasn't until maybe a couple weeks after he returned home that the affection started again

6:45 Still: ndakmom, Thanks for your input. Things still going well?

6:46 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:43 koko: I have to be honest. I did not see the changes I thought I needed. For quite awhile after I made the choice to stick it out, I struggled with that choice. I definitely was not out of that ML tunnel yet.

6:46 Swanlake: David Alan - that could be, I have been told by our children that he and the other woman, which he married fight constantly, he himself told me he is angry every second of every day, and this past year he reduces the contact with our children for several months, just now starting to get back in contact with them and now he is contacting siblings too. I just want him to find peace in his life, hopefully that will include me, but if not I continue to trust in God.

6:46 MarySarah: David 6:40 Is there much difference in B in M than the Boundaries book? Does it go into miscommunications, past habits, old baggage, etc?????

6:46 MAS: David Alan: So, she didn't really need to do any of the things that are usually suggested? You just came out of MLC of your own accord?

6:46 cinder: Dr C: Thank you--yes he did try to pressure me before but got very depressed and exhausted and did not get all changes (and a job) in time and he just did this when I thought after remodeling I would do that next but he got impatient--

6:46 Free to fly: kmkrn1: How are you? When you H was away did he ever make you feel like he would come back?

6:46 kmkrn1: ndakmom - I'm glad things are progressing for you.....be patient! Pour on the affirmations, attention and respect. Make sure he knows that he is appreciated. Love will follow close behind.

6:47 Free to fly: I'm still here not sure why I'm not showing up

6:47 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:44 Still: She had no tangible evidence - and I denied it. But she knew. I don't know how - but she had an uncanny ability to read me.

6:48 MarySarah: Jim 6:42 Good idea. I did that last week when he planned overnight on my usual night had told kids week before, but spoke with me on msg only night B4 still expected me go along, so I excused dtr & kindly said I was glad she was going, in future could he communicate with me ahead of time & understand, it may not work out with my schedule & I felt obligated as he told kids ahead time. He non-defensively said ok & we talked about trivial things like his truck repairs & such.

6:54 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:48 MarySarah: sounds like a very positive dialogue between the 2 of you. Good job.

6:48 ndakmom: Dr Conway- My H does not have a very close relationship with his parents, before H left we would see his parents on occasion, once H left me he seemed to be in constant contact with his parents, since H has returned home late April, he has not made contact with his parents since. I feel his childhood, things that happened with his parents, had a lot to do with his MLC, is it odd he connected with him while he was gone from me, yet now that he's home he wants no contact with them

6:55 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:48 ndakmom: it's hard to answer your comment, but when you were separated he may have been trying to work on some issues with his parents.

6:49 Still: David, @ 6:47 I so much appreciate your honesty. I do believe that there is a fantasy that my H holds to....not sure it is real, but I just can't imagine that there isn't "something" out there that prevents him from emotionally returning.

6:50 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:46 MAS: How to answer you... hmmm. Yes and no. She did make changes to be more independent so in that regard, I didn't feel so responsible to take care of her. She didn't make changes to address a lot of the things I was longing for in a relationship. We are all different. God moved mightily in my own heart to turn me the right direction... but my heart still ached and I was still struggling with my choice. I believe things may have moved faster if my wife had done some of the things Jim recommends.

6:50 koko: David/ I do truly believe no OM. Did your W communicate w/you or hold back and give you space. I to had thoughts of giving up walking out W doesn’t want me to leave which keeps building my hope

6:51 MarySarah: Jim 6:43 Question, I agree with that statement, but what about the person who is emotionally stuck back in early childhood, had no real guidance, was abandoned & then always has gotten everything they asked & has unrealistic expectations high needs?

6:57 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:51 MarySarah: growing up is one of the positive outcomes of going through midlife crisis. Frequently men will become less self centered and be able to work better as team players. This process is frequently painful, but the outcome in positive.

6:51 kmkrn1: F2F - Hi! I had no idea that he would come back.....after all, the ow was SO much more fun than me....but I do remember that being alone during his MLC was better than "walking on glass" when he was still home and back & forth w/ ow.

6:53 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:50 koko: She tried at first - but eventually stopped. She just reached the point where she couldn't take my hardness toward her any more.

6:53 MAS: David Alan: Was there anything in particular that attracted you to the OW? Was she very different from your wife?

6:53 Free to fly: Kmkrn1: Yes I know what you mean. The 2 months he was home was tourture for me..and the kids. I'm told the OW loves to party and have fun.

6:54 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:51 ndakmom: Critically important for all of you to understand how real this is.

6:54 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:51 kmkrn1: There is a huge tension that builds up trying to live in two worlds.

6:54 koko: Jim. Currently reading a lot of books you recommended. I wish more people would read these before problems exist. When I make it through this I will save this material for my children

6:58 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:54 koko: Most people only learn when they have a problem, however it is helpful to give people general knowledge about the various seasons of life so that later they will have a point of reference when they actually go through that season.

6:55 MarySarah: Jim thanks 6:48. It is painful that many people see me as a calm & gentle person, but my H says he only sees lots neg, ( in past when he was here) Also hard that the complaints were about everything, you name it, capabilities @ work, home, appearance. Yes, I too don't like obnoxious contentious women. I work with many & I shake my head & say I wonder how their hearts have been assaulted if @ all, or are they into the feminist mind set. Feel like asking them if they ever known peace

7:00 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:55 MarySarah: I want to remind you that men at midlife are very visual, so it is very important for you to work on your boundary issues, but it is also important to make an attractive presentation for your husband.

6:55 ndakmom: still- for the most part things are going well. We have little bumps along the way, but H has been willing to work through them instead of running away, so I find that very positive. I still see signs of MLC that creep up, but as long as H continue

6:55 kmkrn1: F2F - Luckily the novelty of that does wear off, but not until they can experience for themselves. No one can do it for them. Keep praying--only God can truly get through.

6:55 kmkrn1: DA - You are SO right!

6:55 ndakmom: still cont- to talk with me I hope and pray that it will keep him from totally withdrawing from me again

6:55 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:53 MAS: A complete opposite. She wasn't younger or prettier. But she made me feel like I hadn't felt since I was a teenager. (blush)

6:55 Free to fly: Kmkrn1: Thanks and I will continue praying for him.

6:56 Still: ndakmom, I think of you often and pray that things are still going well.

6:56 Ro828: David 6:50. Like, what kind of things?

6:57 Ro828: David 6:55. But, that eventually wore off, right? Did the OW become stale after awhile in her own right?

6:57 Free to fly: Still/Ndak @ 6:55 I think and pray about you also. Ndakmom you give me hope:)

6:57 koko: David. I feel I am a very passive man. I hold things in. I am also very patient. Trying to build some excitement around her

6:57 MarySarah: Jim My H has only said a few things since left like when I said forgive me, he said for what?, Then he said he didn't feel needed even though he was always gone & expected me handle our family. It's really hard to get into his heart (for anyone) I have thought about asking him to sit down with someone & me should he actually decide to file in Sept. To hear whatever he needs to say & provide some closure if you would, but I will pray about such first

7:03 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:57 MarySarah: your husband expressing his wish to be needed is part of his recognition that he has spent too much of his energy in his work. It's an indicator that he is trying to work his way back, but doesn't really know how. Continue asking God to give him help and insight as you both come to a new adjustment as you come to a new point in your life.

6:59 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:57 Ro828: I think it was more about me beginning to realize what I was losing. No - my relationship with the OW did not go stale - but I did grow weary of the tension trying to please everybody. She was another 'somebody' I had to please.

6:59 koko: David . did you initiate the intimacy when you came out of mlc?

7:00 kmkrn1: ALL - I will set an alarm so that I will not be late on Wednesday! Keeping you all in prayer until then.......Take care! TTFN!

7:00 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:56 Ro828: Too many to mention. The emotional connections and experiences. The physical excitement. But I imagine it's a bit different for everyone.

7:00 MAS: David Alan: Thank you so much, David, you've given me a great deal of insight. I'm sure that everything you're saying holds true for my H, especially the part about the OW. Since they don't experience the day to day drudgery of finances, kids, etc...

7:00 Free to fly: David Alan @6:56 My H said he was tired of trying to please everyone as well. Unfortunately he chose the OW.

7:00 ndakmom: David Allan- I'm not sure I understand @6:54

7:00 koko: Jim. that is what I am keeping them for if they need me I will have something to fall back on

7:01 David Alan [Facilitator]: 6:59 koko: I tried - but I had a very wounded woman on my hands.

7:01 MarySarah: David 6:50 I must say that after years of having affection withheld as a weapon & just neglect, the hard heartedness & overt cruelty , even flaunting the affair, is more than most people can take

7:01 MAS: David Alan: I'm certain the OW in my H's life is a lot more fun and treats him like the prince he wants to be.

7:02 koko: goodnight all tonight flew by see you Wednesday

7:02 Still: David, Thank you so much for your willingness to share your experiences with us all. I am sure it is a time you would like to forget.

7:02 ndakmom: Dr Conway- @6:55 I'm concerned that with him shutting his parents out again that he's shutting out the problems from the past that he never dealt with that I feel led him into MLC to begin with. If he never dealt with it, could he go into crisis mode again?

7:02 MarySarah: David & Mas 6:55 I get that, but isn't that just the fantasy & the lies satan feeds us about someone new who shows attention to any of us in general, even with simple friendships?

7:02 David Alan [Facilitator]: 7:00 ndakmom: Many men bury the shame they experienced growing up - but it comes roaring out during a MLC because they never dealt with it.

7:03 David Alan [Facilitator]: 7:01 MarySarah: I do understand that... NOW.

7:03 Free to fly: koko: bye

7:04 MarySarah: Jim 6:57 praying for that it seems the way H acts though, even with his employees & partner that his selfishness is worse than ever even after 2 years affair, prob lifetime replay behaviors ( esp. 2 yrs before left)

7:04 koko: David going through mlc what did you think was happening did you fall out of love w your W

7:04 ndakmom: David Alan- that's my concern is that he never truly dealt with anything while he was gone and now is back, yet issues never dealt with, will this cause issues again since he again never dealt with things?

7:05 Free to fly: Thanks Dr. Jim and David.

7:05 David Alan [Facilitator]: 7:01 MAS: No doubt. It makes it tough to compete with that because your husband to think of all the negative things he's experienced in his relationship with you during his MLC.

7:05 Free to fly: all: Good night see you all on Wednesday.

7:05 MarySarah: Jim my H always said M should not be hard work (always) even after all his family's Ms fell again & again, he thinks people "change their minds or fall out love, but he puts 200% into anything he wants to do, can't say that for our marriage really

7:06 MarySarah: Jim so how do you fight those misconceptions & that D doesn't hurt kids?

7:06 David Alan [Facilitator]: 7:04 koko: Didn't know at first. Jim helped me A LOT. I did lose my emotional connection with my wife for awhile. But it returned with time.

7:06 MAS: MarySarah@7:02: Yes, but it's probably even more so in the case of someone going through MLC

7:07 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: Thank you for coming everyone. I've got to run. Please keep me in prayer if you will, I'll be traveling for 10 days to be on various TV shows and radio interviews. While I’m gone, I won't be able to make chat next week, but will be praying for all of you during that hour. God Bless. Enjoy your summer!

7:07 David Alan [Facilitator]: I will chat with you all on Wednesday. Take care.

7:08 MarySarah: Jim 7:00 Yes, I get that, but that wasn't a real prob. even between kids I was a sz 6. He never liked lots makeup & I've been fitness instructor a long time. I suspect some porn. issues unrealistic expectations again. He pushed me away even physical

7:08 koko: David. what made you talk to Jim. when did you decide to get help

7:08 MAS: David Alan@7:05: Yes, you are right. I'm sure that is ALL he thinks about and remembers right now.

7:09 LisaK [Programmer]: Hi All. I'm back in as myself.

7:09 David Alan [Facilitator]: LOL! As opposed to...

7:09 MAS: David Alan: Thank you for all your help tonight, David!

7:09 LisaK [Programmer]: Sorry about the rocky start. I dropped my cell phone, it broke, had to go to the AT&T store to get a new phone, and of course it took waaaay longer than it should have.

7:10 David Alan [Facilitator]: 7:08 koko: Didn't speak with Jim. But his resources were invaluable to me.

7:10 MarySarah: Jim 7:03 So can I slowly try to give him opportunities to feel needed here? The OW always used others to live off of definitely affaired down, He has elevated her life so far even to give things he refused to give here that were needs not wants & even neglects work to put ow & their relationship first How can I connect with him, it was all support while he worked & played in our marriage I was dying for time with him he's made huge connection & "works" at this now

7:11 David Alan [Facilitator]: 7:09 MAS: I hope my own experiences are helpful to everyone. I don't understand it all, but God was able to use even this experience to do things in my life that would not have happened any other way.

7:11 LisaK [Programmer]: Dear Lord, thank you for helping us to get through chat tonight without many frustrations and problems. Thank for everyone being here and I pray that you will be with them and be a lamp unto their feet, and light unto their path. Bless all who read this chat and guide their ways Lord, in Jesus' Name I pray, Amen.

7:11 MAS: LisaK: Have there been any updates regarding the retreat?

7:11 David Alan [Facilitator]: Amen

7:12 David Alan [Facilitator]: Nite all.

7:12 MAS: David Alan: It is most definitely a period of spiritual growth.

7:12 LisaK [Programmer]: Thanks for being here David Alan!! You're a rock star!

7:12 LisaK [Programmer]: Good night all.

7:12 MarySarah: David did you see my comments to Jim from about 7:00 on? Any ideas?

7:13 Ro828: Nite all.

7:13 MAS: Goodnight everyone.

7:14 cinder: Goodbye, thank you--

7:16 MarySarah: Goodnight all, God's blessings!!!!!!!!!!!!! : - )

6:31 MarySarah: Jim & David, recently I set some matter of fact, sort of stern boundaries with my H re picking up & dropping off kids, as my H still thinks I must go along with all he wants (did that 25yrs.) I stayed calm & stated what I was willing to do, he hung 2X & later called back & compromised about meeting me few mi away his house. I will not be exposed to his AW making out with him in front of me if I pick up our kids. Trouble is he planned another vacation he "told" me about ahead time, but had planned it ahead so as to leave on "my weekend" He still expects to ALWAYS get his way as he has for years. I want to say no even though he is acting a bit less cruel. I can't trust it's for any reason but to get his way.

6:35 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:31 MarySarah: Boundaries are good to set, but remember that the Bible teaches us that we are to not be vindictive or punishing as we set these things. The Bible phrase is "speak the truth in love". It is a difficult thing to begin to establish boundaries when it has not been a couple's experience earlier in their marriage. I encourage you to read some of the Boundary Books by Townsend and Cloud. They will give you some guidance in this process.

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