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June 21, 2010 / with Jim Conway

6:07 Ro828: Jim. Why do some men never come out of crisis?

6:09 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:07 Ro828: Some men never face the real issues at midlife, so they keep on struggling. Generally, midlife men do some adjusting as they push some of their midlife crisis to the background. Then when they come to retirement the issues erupt again, with double intensity. So it's better if people will face the issues as they come along in life, rather than letting them stack up.

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June 21, 2010 / Monday Chat with Jim 6-7 pm PST / CR#2

5:57 Swanlakejgs [Programmer]: Good evening everyone, welcome to Monday Chat with Jim. Remember, Jim always offers his live counseling in the chat room without cost. If you wish to make a tax-deductible donation to our ministry to support the Website/Chat Room upkeep, please do so at www.Midlife.com. Thank you. Jim will be online with us momentarily. Lisa is unable to be with us tonight, she is traveling with her family. Jim will be typing his responses so please bear with us tonight.

5:57 Swanlakejgs [Programmer]: James 1:5-8 - If you need wisdom, ask our generous God, and he will give it to you. He will not rebuke you for asking. But when you ask him, be sure that your faith is in God alone. Do not waver, for a person with divided loyalty is as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is blown and tossed by the wind. Such people should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. Their loyalty is divided between God and the world, and they are unstable in everything they do.

5:59 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: hello to all of you

5:59 Swanlakejgs [Programmer]: Hello Cricket and faithful, welcome

6:00 faithfull: Hello it has been a while but glad to be in chat tonight.

6:00 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 5:58 Cricket: thanks to both of you for being in the chat room tonight. I will need all the help I can get

6:00 Cricket [Facilitator]: Hi faithful - You're first so a great chance to get Jim's wise assistance. Ask questions as you like

6:01 Cricket [Facilitator]: Jim - Hey typing is easy compared to the great advice/wisdom you bring to us. Glad to help

6:02 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:01 Cricket: Flattery will get you everything

6:02 Swanlakejgs [Programmer]: Hello MAS and Ro828, welcome glad you are here with us tonight

6:02 Cricket [Facilitator]: Hey MAS, Ro828 - Welcome, feel free to ask questions of Jim and Swan will assist in Lisa's place

6:02 Ro828: Hi Cricket. All

6:02 faithfull: H never responded to s26 text yesterday on father days. Today I text him and told him s5 miss him and wanted to talk to him. He never responded.

6:02 MAS: Hello Jim, Swan, Cricket, everyone.

6:03 Cricket [Facilitator]: Ro828 - You'd asked before about why some mlcrs never come out of the tunnel, Jim is a great one to ask that of.

6:03 faithfull: Hello MAS how are you. It has been a while since I been in chat.

6:03 Cricket [Facilitator]: Faithfull - Is your comments about H's text for Jim?

6:03 Ro828: Jim: 6:03. Yes, I did. Could you please explain? Thanks Cricket!

6:03 WTG4GOD: Hello ALL :)

6:04 MAS: faithfull: Hi faithfull. How are you doing?

6:04 Cricket [Facilitator]: Faithfull - Father's Day is a difficult time for mlcrs as it really brings their guilt to the surface, they often want to put their head in the sand.

6:04 Swanlakejgs [Programmer]: Hi WTG4GOD, welcome

6:04 WTG4GOD: Hi Swanlake :)

6:04 faithfull: All Sorry I forgot it has been a while. The question is to everyone. I am just at a loss with his behavior and sadden for my kids.

6:05 MAS: Hi Ro828, WTG, Snickerdoodle, Still. How are you tonight?

6:05 Cricket [Facilitator]: Hi WTG4GOD & Snickerdoodle - feel free to take advantage of Jim's generosity in assisting us during chat.

6:05 Swanlakejgs [Programmer]: Hello Snickerdoodle and Still, glad you have joined us

6:05 WTG4GOD: Hi Cricket, thanks :)

6:05 faithfull: MAS I am doing well and actually enjoy life a little bit more. I have come of my medication and doing good so far.

6:05 Ro828: MAS Doing well. How about yourself

6:06 MAS: faithfull: That's wonderful. It's so good to hear. What have you been doing lately?

6:06 Still: Hi everyone!

6:06 Cricket [Facilitator]: Ro828 -Jim prefers that each of us ask our own questions, just wanted to remind you.

6:06 MAS: Ro828: Am feeling a little better today, thanks.

6:07 faithfull: MAS I went on vacation to CA for three week and really enjoy it. H never let me drive by myself and I did it. I am so proud of myself. I drove in the big city of San Diego.

6:07 Ro828: Jim. Why do some men never come out of crisis?

6:09 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:07 Ro828: Some men never face the real issues at midlife, so they keep on struggling. Generally, midlife men do some adjusting as they push some of their midlife crisis to the background. Then when they come to retirement the issues erupt again, with double intensity. So it's better if people will face the issues as they come along in life, rather than letting them stack up.

6:08 WTG4GOD: I have a question for Jim. My H, who just moved out the beginning of May is very friendly with me. Sends me texts, emails me, cracks jokes with me, comes over and hangs out w/ the kids etc etc... today I had a "weak moment" and cried a little... he came over and rubbed my bag and said sorry and then said "maybe I shouldn't come over as much" and left. He'll text me to see if I got home OK when he knows I'm coming home alone. It's almost like we're not even separated... except we are but he seems unable to handle me when I'm emotional. Is he pretending in his mind that everything is OK and when I'm emotional it makes him retreat?

6:11 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:08 WTG4GOD: Your husband is trying to reconnect to you -- but he is afraid of coming right out with it -- so he is trying to tell you with all of his actions of caring. Be encouraged!

6:08 MAS: faithfull: Oh, San Diego! I've always wanted to go there! I hear it's a great city.

6:08 Cricket [Facilitator]: Faithfull - WOW, that's really great to experience driving in a large city like San Diego for the first time. Doesn't it feel good to find we can do things our H's never believe we could do. It helps build our self esteem

6:09 Cricket [Facilitator]: MAS - I'm glad you're feeling better today, migraine gone?

6:10 Still: Dr. C., Is it possible to give my H too much space at home? I try not to bother him and read his body language for any signs of agitation....just generally leave him alone. He seems to really want that, but I wonder if it could be harmful in any way.

6:14 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:10 Still: Most midlife men are so internally exhausted that they cannot take on the load of trying to help the family or their wife. The quiet time that you are giving him will let him recuperate. I went through long stretches of time where I just had to isolate because of the emotional overload I was feeling. It's a normal process -- don't panic!

6:10 Ro828: Faithful: That's wonderful

6:11 faithfull: MAS and Cricket yes I am very proud of myself. I am taking a little break from school. Start back July 6th.

6:11 Cricket [Facilitator]: Jim - My H went thru mlc breakdown in his 30's, put on Prozac & talk counseling but didn't really deal. 15 yrs later it hit again, I guess harder to heal that way?

6:14 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:11 Cricket: your absolutely correct!

6:11 MAS: Cricket: Yes, I've had a headache off and on for about a week along with some abdominal discomfort. I think it was some kind of virus.

6:11 Still: Hi Blue!

6:11 Swanlakejgs [Programmer]: Hello BlueSky, welcome

6:11 WTG4GOD: How was Father's Day for everyone? :)

6:11 MAS: Hi Bluesky1

6:12 Cricket [Facilitator]: Faithfull - Things like this are huge in our healing & rebuilding our self esteem. It's important that we do find things we didn't feel we could do or didn't give ourselves time to do. Doing these in our journey is really good for us

6:12 Swanlakejgs [Programmer]: All - please be patient with us tonight, Lisa is enjoying time traveling with her family, so Jim and I are slower than she, Jim will get to your questions as quickly as possible.

6:13 WTG4GOD: Dr. Jim, how is it reconnection when we never really Disconnected? I mean we've had our moments in the last almost yr since his MLC came to life but we've generally been like this, even after he moved out. Is that still good or is he in denial?

6:16 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:13 WTG4GOD: From what you are describing, I believe that your husband was really disconnecting from you -- even though you may not have felt that you were disconnecting from him. So as he tries to work his way back -- remember that men don't talk their way back -- they tend to just do loving activities .

6:15 MAS: Jim: Is it possible to give a spouse too much space after they leave? Doesn't that often give them more of an opportunity to find OW? It seems as if that's what happened in my case.

6:18 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:15 MAS: Remember, that your focus during this time should be trying to discover why your husband would want to be away from you, and or the family. It may be too much stress at work, fear of growing older, wondering whether he is an attractive midlife person, etc. etc. Make sure that you are the one bright attractive spot in his life!

6:15 Cricket [Facilitator]: Jim - Thank you, I've had a great teacher in you & your angels here through the years.

6:16 Still: Dr. C. @ 6:14. Thank you. I have noticed he has become very quiet. Not saying much to anyone. Avoiding anything family related. I just keep praying that he will see this is within him and not everything around him.

6:19 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:16 Still: he will eventually -- but he will never tell you that

6:16 MAS: Hello Plum, how are you?

6:16 Cricket [Facilitator]: MAS - I believe your H had the OW, they just feel so guilty & don't want us to blame the OW so they are very careful to keep her hidden until they feel it's an appropriate time or we find it out.

6:17 Swanlakejgs [Programmer]: Good evening Plumcrazy

6:17 WTG4GOD: Dr. Jim @6:16 OK thank you. He offered to take me to the eye doctor this week too and I was floored because my son could take me but he said he would. I guess I'm looking for more obvious things like saying "I LOVE YOU" :) thank you :)

6:20 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:17 WTG4GOD: Saying I love you will happen only after you have gotten tightly reconnected. Remember that the first times he told you that he loves you -- what he really wanted was sex. It's hard for men to say that they love someone -- even their wife and/or their children.

6:17 Still: Hi Koko, Hi Plum.

6:17 faithfull: Jim why did H not respond to s26 text on father’s day or that the s5 wanted to talk to him and miss him. I just do not know how to deal with it. It really hurt my s26

6:22 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:17 faithfull: Father's Day -- as well as any holiday are tough times for people who were going through family struggles. Men tend to think that if they ignore a problem it will go away -- so he probably hoped that by ignoring Father's Day, and even his son, he could forget some of the internal pain that he is experiencing.

6:17 Cricket [Facilitator]: koko -Hi there, haven't seen you in chat a while, how are you doing?

6:17 Swanlakejgs [Programmer]: Hi koko, glad you have joined us, Jim is in and so far the room has been working well.

6:19 faithfull: Jim you say they can handle stress and need time. Well h is working over 50 hours a week and has nothing to show for it. It does not make any sense.

6:23 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:19 faithfull: Be careful not to let your anger and frustration show -- it is counterproductive!

6:19 Plumcrazy: Hello all--Was just reading back

6:19 WTG4GOD: Hello Koko! :)

6:19 Cricket [Facilitator]: WTG4GOD - They really have a hard time saying things like I love you or specific things. As Jim said/teaches... they show us things more by their actions. I really think you learned & handled this so well so quickly that it's helped but your H still has to process this & they scare themselves when they feel drawn to us more or if they worry that they are hurting us too much.

6:20 Ro828: Hi Plum

6:20 MAS: Cricket: I pretty much know for a fact there was no OW in the picture for at least a year or two. When my H first left, we still had a lot of contact....he had me over for dinner, I spent the night, at his apt. , we celebrated my birthday, etc,

6:20 Bluesky1: faithfull, I am sorry for you children, they must really hurt. Is it possible he lost his phone or changed numbers?

6:20 Still: Faithfull, My H is a complete workaholic since MLC. He takes on every project, serves on every committee, signs up for every sporting event......I think he tries everything he can to avoid having to explore his own thoughts/feelings.

6:21 WTG4GOD: CRICKET @6:19 that's what I was worried about, that I'd scare him off. I usually don't have a problem holding it together but something about tonight... I went to the sink and was silently crying but I guess he could tell. ARGH! Thank you :)

6:21 Bluesky1: Jim, have you heard of a site called forty sixty? it has a quote from you on it.

6:24 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:21 Bluesky1: I never heard of the site. Send Lisa an e-mail with the address.

6:21 Plumcrazy: Jim--H and I went to a concert alone together Fri. night. We both decided the drunk people around us were getting on our nerves and left 3/4 thru the concert. H seemed upset and cursed at me but later I found the person next to him was the prob.

6:25 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:21 Plumcrazy: I am proud of your insight.

6:21 MAS: Cricket: This was all during the first year or so. Then I noticed he was gradually pulling away and detaching and I didn't know why, but I gave him the space I felt he needed. In retrospect, I wonder if this was the wise thing to do.

6:21 faithfull: Bluesky no he did not because his phone called me by mistake and I call him back. He did not pick up the phone but text me that it was an accident.

6:22 Cricket [Facilitator]: MAS - Okay I see, that's unusual but it does happen that way too. As Jim said, they are struggling with getting older, is this all there is with life, wondering about all the What If's -- so part of the quick fix they pursue is what life could be with someone new...

6:22 faithfull: Bluesky it was then that I took the time to tell him that s5 wanted to talk to him and ask regarding s26 text and him not answering he never reply.

6:23 MAS: Hello koko.

6:23 Bluesky1: Still, my h is working and traveling too much too. Its a shame they react they way they do. There is so much help out there and they could get "help" and be happy a lot faster, but if they don't think they have the problem then well......

6:23 Plumcrazy: Jim--H has been initiating more intimacy and trying new things. I asked him about it . There is no OW He said he had been reading articles.. Do you think this is encouraging?

6:26 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:23 Plumcrazy: VERY!!

6:23 faithfull: Jim that is why I left alone and did not text again. I usually do not text again if he does not respond. h text s over a week ago and ask him what he thought of him when he left. S26 told him he taught it was just an excuse for him to leave and taught we could work it out. He never reply to son.

6:28 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:23 faithfull, 6:25 faithfull: Your husband is thinking about what both of you have said. Let it cook in his mind.

6:23 Cricket [Facilitator]: WTG4GOD - It's good to try to keep our emotions from them, but one little slip like that won't make the difference. Pray over it and pray for the Lord to use this or remove it from his mind. There will be more contact & you will handle it even better. You've been doing a great job

6:24 Bluesky1: faithfull, bummer, the kids are so innocent.

6:24 Still: Blue @ 6:23. I know. There are times when I look at my H and I just want to try to convince him to get help. I know that could not be beneficial.....so, I just step back and wait for him to have that epiphany. It's so hard to watch though..

6:24 Plumcrazy: Jim---H has made comments over the past few months about women taking care of themselves. I am working on losing weight and dressing better. But health issues have limited my exercising. Went to Dr and getting treated for those now

6:31 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:24 Plumcrazy: I just saw two of my doctors today -- one of them suggested that I consider going on a strongly vegetarian diet as a way to lower my blood pressure and cholesterol, and to lose weight. I am making progress -- down 16 pounds. They feel that more green leafy vegetables will help accelerate my body change. You might want to try a new approach. Read the information on the Cleveland clinic website.

6:24 WTG4GOD: DR. JIM @6:20 thank you for your insight. I'll be sure to try and not do that again, I don't want to scare him off but it is very hard to be around him so much and things are like nothing happened. His friendliness is hard sometimes

6:25 koko: All. how is everyone, tough fathers day D8 had to tell W to say happy fathers day.

6:25 Ro828: Blue. I agree with your comment of 6:23. I'm amazed that they rather spin than seek help or admit they're feeling "off" for a lack of a better word.

6:25 Bluesky1: Jim, I will, is that illegal to do? to quote you?

6:32 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:25 Bluesky1: Yes, people do it all the time. I'm glad if people are getting help.

6:26 Plumcrazy: Jim---So I dressed up and did my makeup for the concert. No reaction or comment. Then he was watching a show about Real NY Housewives He was going on about this one woman. I said what’s so great? He said she takes care of herself

6:33 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:26 Plumcrazy: You're on the right track -- keep at it

6:26 Still: Blue, the 40/60 site was started by a man named Newman. He used to be on the midlife forum website. It is a secular site, much like the midlife forum. Not a lot of support for standers from what I have gathered.

6:27 Ro828: Koko. Sorry to hear that.

6:27 Cricket [Facilitator]: MAS - You can't change the past. I believe they need to work through these things. Most have to pursue their fantasy. Your H separated & still connected with you but found it didn't fix what he was seeking. He then sought OW. When he pulled away, he was realizing he was still searching. Nothing you did could have helped that. Things like that happened with my H. He admitted I was doing great but he felt something still missing.

6:27 WTG4GOD: CRICKET @6:23 thank you for reminding me to pray about removing it from him, very good suggestion and advice, I will do so for sure! :) My main goal is to be CONSISENT and show unconditional love all the time

6:28 Cricket [Facilitator]: WTG4GOD - You aren't superhuman... these things happen. The important thing is that you know that & you've done a great job of being consistent. Your H sees this and one slip won't ruin all the good things you've been doing.

6:28 Bluesky1: Still, I came by it quite by accident, but I just didn't know if you could legally do that.

6:28 faithfull: Still I also try other chat groups but were just a waste of my time. They are no help.

6:28 Plumcrazy: Jim- The day after the concert I asked what he thought of how I looked. H said "I didn't even notice!" I said you can notice these other women but you didn’t even notice my looks? IS this normal MLC stuff?

6:33 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:28 Plumcrazy: normal

6:28 Ro828: Jim: Funny you said that. Before my H left for good kept saying "talking is over-rated". I'm assuming he's probably not talking much to his OW. Which is a good question? Do they engage much with OW?

6:34 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:28 Ro828: Remember that guys talk a lot when their first trying to connect with you -- then they go into their man caves, and only come out if you waved food in front of them -- or the TV control.

6:29 Bluesky1: faithfull, so true, when you have the best right here, why go anywhere else?

6:29 MAS: Cricket @6:27: I guess that's what still hurts....the fact that he needed to continue searching.

6:30 Still: Blue/Faithfull, I agree. I just wish this site had an ongoing forum.

6:30 faithfull: Jim I do leave him alone and do not contact unless he contact me first or a bill collector calls. I forward all his mail that comes to me. They are mainly bill collectors.

6:35 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:30 faithfull: keep forwarding the bills to him.

6:30 Bluesky1: MAS, that’s what it is all about in a nutshell.

6:30 Cricket [Facilitator]: Plum - The good thing is that your H's comments show you how visual he is. You're doing the right things in working on your physical condition & you know your H will notice more and more as you do. They worry that we won't keep up our good work & I think hold of saying anything to see if it's real.

6:30 Bluesky1: Faithfull, congrats on your driving to SD. I know the feeling, I did the same with d to Calif too last year.

6:31 WTG4GOD: CRICKET @6:28 thank you for the encouraging words. This is rough stuff but God has never left my side and I can honestly say I would go back to Day 1 of this nightmare just to get where I am today with God.

6:32 faithfull: Bluesky thanks it was really nice. Now we are planning another trip to Dallas. This time my s26 and grandbaby will come. I am looking forward to it.

6:32 koko: Ro828/6:21. I am a man and I don’t talk much even know I am crazy in love with my wife. I realize now that women like to hear this and if when we do work through this I will make sure I tell her along w my actions how much I do love her

6:32 Ro828: MAS 6:29. I know. It hurts like blazes but we really don't know what goes on in someone's mind. Or why they feel the way they do.

6:32 Swanlakejgs [Programmer]: Jim - I have some great vegetarian recipes if you take your doctors suggestion and need new ideas.

6:36 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:32 Swanlakejgs: Thanks -- I really want this to work.

6:32 Bluesky1: all, please keep Bethel in your thoughts and prayers this week, she got her D settlement today. I was hoping she would show up tonight so we could be with her.

6:32 Cricket [Facilitator]: MAS - They really don't want to lose their marriage or us so they try things but they still feel depressed & like something's missing. It really isn't all about us although usually things we can work on. But when the depression/feeling of loss doesn't go away, they think it's us. Many have a fantasy about what it would be like to be with someone else. They've been with us so long & fantasize about what it would be like with someone new. It's part of the fantasy they pursue.

6:32 Bluesky1: faithfull, good for you.

6:33 faithfull: WTG4GOD I know what you mean. I have come a long way and know that I am going to be ok. Miss h but is ok without him. My walk with God has grown so much.

6:33 Plumcrazy: Jim--I have plantar's fasciitis I have walked on it for over a month at work. So I have limped around . Now starting physical therapy. Plus it has caused a lot of pain in my knees from walking funny

6:37 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:33 Plumcrazy: A drastic change in your eating habits may have a very positive effect on your problem. Shoot for an all RAW diet.

6:34 WTG4GOD: Bluesky @6:32 will do - I don't think I've met her yet but I will def lift her up in prayer

6:34 Cricket [Facilitator]: MAS - BUT as Jim tell us, we need to look at things that we could improve in ourselves. If we've gotten out of shape, if there are emotional issues, if we are too needy or controlling, etc. These are important things to work on in us. ALSO men are very visual so taking care of ourselves, updating hair style, our dress and/or makeup== these are important during mlc particularly.

6:34 koko: Jim. how do I stop being afraid of my W. as far as communicating and saying wrong thing

6:39 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:34 koko: Keep trying to understand what she really wants out of life. Keep asking yourself, "how can I make my wife's life better, and more meaningful from her point of view.

6:34 Ro828: Koko. I pray that you'll have that opportunity as well. Is she still at home?

6:34 Bluesky1: Plum I just recovered from that in Jan thru March. I didn't have PT for it, I took some cortizone shots. I had it in both feet for a year. Thought my life was going to be like that forever. What a nice surprise. I was in a walking boot too.

6:35 MAS: Bluesky: You mean us giving them space, or that they still need to search?

6:35 Bluesky1: WTG, you actually remind me of her and vice versa, now that I think about it. She doesn't come in often. I don't think she has a connection at home. But she is a neat gal.

6:35 koko: Ro828. yes she is still at home says she is not going anywhere

6:35 Plumcrazy: Bluesky--Did you get the shots in your foot Dr says it is painful

6:36 Ro828: Cricket: 6:32. We were separated for 2 years. I let him go thinking he would realize it wasn't me. In the end he still wanted a D even though he didn't pursue it. I did. Why didn't he realize it wasn't me after two years?

6:36 Cricket [Facilitator]: Plum - I also have plantars faciititis - My doctor prescribed orthotic inserts. They really helped. I jog 3-4 miles every other day & don't have real pain due to inserts. ALSO my doctor said to freeze a water bottle and roll my foot on the frozen water bottle.

6:36 faithfull: Jim we own a time share and only owe $900 on it. He stop paying on it and we almost lost it. I had to take over the payments. Was that ok. I did not want to loose it. We almost pay for it.

6:42 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:36 faithfull: You need to get local financial advise -- this is not my area.

6:37 MAS: Ro828:@6:32 That is so true.

6:37 Bluesky1: Plum, yep, it hurts for a couple of minutes, but was so worth it. I was back doing my walking routine after a week.

6:37 WTG4GOD: Faithfull @ 6:33 *hugs* I've even had a few nights to myself when the kids are w/ H and I think "ooh this is nice" lol but I wouldn't trade those nights alone for my family of course. God's timing, God's way God's will :)

6:37 WTG4GOD: BLUESKY @6:35 really? Well I can't wait to meet her then one day :D

6:38 Ro828: Mas 6:34. It's been 3+ years for me and I'm just starting to realize some of the mistakes I made. Sometimes I think we need distance from a situation to realize what went wrong.

6:38 faithfull: WTG4GOD that is what I tell myself. I am in Gods perfect will and what better place to be. He only wants the best for me and my future.

6:38 Plumcrazy: Cricket---Thanks for the info This is the third time in 10 yrs I have had this. Each time from a bad pair of shoes and not realizing they were hurting my foot that much until I was in extreme pain and couldn’t figure out why

6:38 Cricket [Facilitator]: Ro828 - I began working on thing immediately when my H admitted mlc. We went on romantic vacation, I initiated new sex and other things that my H admitted were great... but he still had depression. He said he felt we lost our connection & that was the cause. I don't think any of our H's realize it's not us... if they did, they'd return. They have to convince themselves something is missing in their relationship with us &that's the cause- that justifies them leaving

6:39 koko: Jim what do think of the book desperate marriage by Dr Chapman anything to do with mlc

6:43 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:39 koko: If this is Dr. GARY Chapman, the answer is yes.

6:39 Plumcrazy: Bluesky-Have you had the shots for arthritis in your knees?

6:39 WTG4GOD: Faithfull @6:38 that's right! We want God's fingerprints all over this reconciliation/restoration. Not ours!!! ;)

6:39 Bluesky1: Plum the PT I did have, just remembered, was taping my feet. I am in the hot zone so we wear flip-flops all the time, not the greatest for your feet. Luckily this was during winter, so I wore more shoes and like Cricket said, orthos.

6:39 Ro828: Jim 6:37 So what you are saying is that he may have been talkative getting to know OW and now that they've spend a few good years together he might be a clam shell with her too?

6:44 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:39 Ro828: Yes

6:40 Bluesky1: Plum, it also could be from other things....weight gain, short shins (stretch those), flip flops

6:41 Cricket [Facilitator]: BlueSky - Thanks for sharing about Bethel - I wish she'd come in or at least sent an email so we could encourage her and keep her in prayer

6:41 Plumcrazy: Blue----Dr says it was from the shoes

6:41 MAS: Cricket: I know I need to work on myself, including updating hair, clothes, etc...But why is it okay for them to walk around looking like hobos much of the time?

6:41 Bluesky1: Plum, no my knees didn't really hurt until the end, but once the foot pain was gone, woo hoo. I felt like a new person. Mine started right after I had a hysterectomy, so I thought it was hormonal problems. That’s why I waited so long

6:42 Cricket [Facilitator]: Plum - I've also been told that as we get older, we are more susceptible to PT, especially if wearing bad shoes.

6:42 Plumcrazy: Jim---H is talking about starting to walk and lift weights again. I think that is good. the exercise helped his mood

6:44 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:42 Plumcrazy: exercise is a good way to reduce stress and elevate our overall mood level.

6:42 Bluesky1: Cricket, she actually did send an email to ESG today. It must be in your 'thousands' to go thru.

6:45 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:43 faithfull: Check with your pastor about people in your community who could give you trustworthy information

6:43 Ro828: Cricket 6:38. My H had major depression. He was on two different kinds of meds plus was seeing IC. Unfortunately he did not feel any of those things help and stopped doing all. Only help for him is God at this point.

6:43 Cricket [Facilitator]: MAS - Most of these guys try to look younger again in mlc. BUT bottom line, they are depressed & searching for why. When they look at wife, they are looking for excuses for why they are unhappy... then when there is an attractive woman who is friendly, they are even more drawn to them.

6:44 Plumcrazy: Hi Free

6:44 Free to fly: Hello everyone

6:44 Bluesky1: faithfull, you could get advice w/o starting the process. this would be just to protect yourself and kids.

6:44 Still: Hi Free!

6:44 WTG4GOD: Hi Free

6:44 Cricket [Facilitator]: Ro828 - Also they need to deal with the issues they've buried. They can't bury pain forever, eventually it comes barreling out in mlc and has to be dealt with

6:44 Free to fly: Hey Plum

6:45 Free to fly: How is everyone doing? Plum/WTG

6:45 Swanlakejgs [Programmer]: 6:43 faithfull: I understand your not wanting to lose the time share and if it was not a financial strain, and you will use it without husband it was most likely a wise action. If it will create financial difficulty, you might consider selling it rather than just lose it. My thoughts on the matter, also with a timeshare, if you may not use your time, some places permit you to and will even assist in renting your time to someone else, so you might get a return on investment.

6:45 Ro828: MAS 6:41. I so get what you're saying here. Men want their women to look like bombshells and yet they can have a beer gut and wear t-shirts all day long. I'm sorry but if I'm taking care of myself I expect my man to take care of himself also.

6:45 Swanlakejgs [Programmer]: Hello Free to fly, welcome

6:45 Free to fly: Still: I haven't seen you in a while I was wondering if everything was okay

6:45 MAS: Ro828: I realized what my faults were even before my H left, and I told him I was willing to do anything to make our marriage work. But at that point, he was no longer willing to listen. He just wanted out.

6:45 Free to fly: hey Swan

6:46 Cricket [Facilitator]: JIM - AMEN & AMEN. Exercise was the best thing for me when I was in such pain from my H leaving, etc. I'd feel exhausted & think no way I could exercise but when I pushed myself to do so...the stress eased greatly.... not to mention the health benefits.

6:46 koko: Jim I think I know she just wont let me take her there, yet. She seems to be in better mood with sun. Heat and exercise

6:49 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:46 koko: Remember, for much of this process you will need to take the role of praying intensely for your wife. You will have to allow God to work through other people for the changes in your wife's life. I think that you are very close to being too possessive -- and she may feel that you are controlling. Think about it.

6:46 faithfull: Bluesky I have been thinking about it but do not feel led to. I am doing pretty well financially. I get scare to think what mess he is in financially and if something should happen to him I will be responsible for it but then I have to trust in God.

6:47 Free to fly: All: Father's Day is over and I have that monkey off of my back. My first one without H. It was hard but with Gods helping hand I made it. PTL!

6:47 WTG4GOD: Ro828: I pretezeled myself trying to do everything my H said was missing from our marriage, stuff I had never heard before and never knew were even were a remote thought.

6:47 MAS: Ro828: As in Cricket's case, my H said we didn't have a connection.

6:47 faithfull: Swan that is what I taught. I could afford it and could use it for my kids.

6:47 WTG4GOD: FREE - Praise the Lord indeed :) I found Mother's Day harder for me than Father's Day but I think that's because it was the week after he had moved out

6:48 Cricket [Facilitator]: MAS - For one, they don't believe our words. They need to see results. ALSO - They get frustrated that we didn't address these issues before they reached the point of wanting out. Some have actually said.. how could you not have known this was a problem but you didn't care enough to address the issues until I was done.

6:48 faithfull: Well have to go. Thanks for all the advice and was nice to be in chat. God Bless.

6:48 WTG4GOD: Cricket @ 6:48 yes, my H said at the worst of it before he left when I told him I didn't know those things bothered him he said "WELL I HINTED!!!" but no, he hadn't, ever. HE was so bitter and angry. I couldn't understand it

6:49 Free to fly: Dr. Conway: There is an OW but my H keeps talking about him moving on. What exactly does that mean,, moving on with someone else or that I was just not what he wanted?

6:50 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:49 Free to fly: He is discovering that he can't run away from himself. Hopefully, he will start looking to God and inside himself -- instead of running to another woman.

6:49 Cricket [Facilitator]: MAS - BUT they do notice the changes we make & although it takes time, these changes are what help draw them home when things blow up with OW. If they can see we really did make changes & the changes are real...so it takes time for them to believe

6:49 Free to fly: WTG: Mothers Day was hard for me to.

6:49 Ro828: MAS 6:45. We all experienced that . But the issues mine complained about didn't make sense. Like, I kept the kitchen table full of papers. Really....enough to leave me for.

6:49 Still: Free, Yes, everything is pretty much the same. I guess that is my version of "fine". How are you?

6:49 MAS: Hi Free, how are you?

6:50 Plumcrazy: Jim--H is still at work. he is working with a client trying to solve an issue that wasn’t resolved last week after three hrs of overtime. I want to call and ask when he will be home but know this probably isn’t a good idea

6:52 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:50 Plumcrazy: Can you send him a text message? Briefly, "I'm praying that the issue with your client will be resolved quickly."

6:50 Cricket [Facilitator]: WTG4GOD - Yeah they THINK or convince themselves that they hinted, that we should know but most of them didn't. They also say that it wouldn't do any good to tell us... That's all part of their denial. We just need to work on these things ourselves & trust God with the rest

6:51 Ro828: WTG: Exactly my point I just made to MAS. I pretzel myself too but it was never enough. Once he asked me to list 3 things I liked about him. I did. Then he wanted 6. Then 10. This was one conversation yet it wasn't enough.

6:51 MAS: Ro828@6:45: Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

6:51 WTG4GOD: CRICKET @6:50 I'm with u on trusting and leaving it to God. In fact, if you do, He will tell you "great and unsearchable things" about our spouses and our situations that are so comforting!!!

6:51 Ro828: MAS 6:47. My H said we were too much alike and judging by the OW he picked we were because me and OW are NOTHING alike (which I'm rather happy about)

6:51 Free to fly: Hey MAS: How are you?

6:53 Cricket [Facilitator]: WTG4GOD - YES - You are so right. The hard thing is that women tend to be nurturing/fixers so it's hard to let go and let God after years of trying to fix all for our H's /family

6:53 MAS: Free@6:47: Holidays are all very difficult, but somehow, we manage to get through them.

6:53 WTG4GOD: I don't want to jinx it but I sure am happy that chat is going so smoothly tonight LOL

6:53 Ro828: Cricket 6:48. Mine actually said he was tired waiting for us to change so he was going to change. I believe I'm changing for the better. If he's still with abusive OW I don't think he's changing at all or changing for the worse.

6:53 Free to fly: Dr. Conway: He told the kids that he woke up yesterday morning with "an incredible empty feeling" and he knew what was missing was them. He told them that he knew that he needed them to complete him. However still making no effort

6:55 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:53 Free to fly: He has just taken a very important first step! Good for him! And good for all of your family!

6:53 koko: Jim thanks. I think I need to give her the space and start really working on myself. it makes it difficult when I see her every day, sleep in same bed but can physically touch her, I should be grateful she is still home and we do spend time together

6:56 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:53 koko: It's hard sometimes to just back up and let God work. But it is also a good process for you, as you learn to be less controlling! I can only imagine how difficult your living and marriage situation is right now. But remember to keep focused on the man that God wants you to be.

6:54 Swanlakejgs [Programmer]: Jim - referring to Ro828 @6:51 - why do so many men in MLC seek women who are completely opposite of their wives and even often the type of woman they despised and mocked before MLC?

6:59 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:54 Swanlakejgs: Most people when they get burned with one situation -- they will tend to flop entirely to the other extreme. We see it in politics, teenagers, national fads, etc. etc.. Hopefully, somewhere down the line our mates will want to see the very best in us -- and want the very best for their families.

6:54 Free to fly: MAS: Yes we do and each day we get a little stronger

6:54 WTG4GOD: CRICKET @6:53 yes it is, I kept laying it at the cross and then picking it all back off. I think I finally got there for the most part. My H doesn't occupy my thoughts all day long which is such a relief on so many levels :)

6:54 Bluesky1: WTG, hey good point.

6:54 Ro828: WTG: Yep, mine was angry too. I think because we're so good at multi-tasking they think we can read minds too.

6:54 Plumcrazy: Jim---LOL I hate texting! I am extremely slow at it. I don’t think that is a good idea. He will probably say I am checking up on him

6:54 Cricket [Facilitator]: FreetoFly/ALL - This is info that Jim has shared with us before - I'll paste here - Holidays are a tough time, we know... Holidays are tough for people in unhappy marriages when everyone else seems so happy. Depression is higher during the holidays than any other time of year. It's important to make plans and be proactive. Don't allow yourself to be overwhelmed, lonely, and depressed. Doing these types of activities helps change your brain chemistry, which enables you to cope with life better. 1) Spend time with encouraging friends. 2) Plan a special event/activity that will nourish you. 3) Ask for extra prayer from your support group. 4) Spend extra time with God, in His Word, listening to praise music. 5) Make time to exercise, go walking with close friends. 6) Volunteer in your community, or church, to take meals to people in need, serve meals at a shelter, etc. Deliberately get outside your needs to see other's needs and how you can help them.

6:54 Free to fly: Swan @6:54 to Dr. Conway: Ditto!

6:55 Still: Koko, we always commiserate on the physical touch issue. It really hurts to spend each day with someone who won't come anywhere near you. I am so thankful that my kids are huggers. It really does help.

6:55 Swanlakejgs [Programmer]: Everyone - please begin to wrap up your questions, as we are nearing closing time for tonight

6:55 Bluesky1: Free, what a great praise. Give him time to figure it out.

6:56 WTG4GOD: Thank you Dr. Conway and Cricket and Swanlake for a wonderful evening :)

6:56 MAS: WTG: Mother's Day was our anniversary. My whole family was together except for my H...this was the first time he wasn't with all of us, and it was hard, but I managed to survive it okay.

6:56 Still: Free, that is good to hear.

6:56 Free to fly: Cricket @ 6:54: Thanks for that. Number 4 was what I ended up doing.

6:56 Cricket [Facilitator]: Free - I agree with Jim - That was a huge praise - that he shared this. Their realizing this is a big first step but it's still hard for them to face doing what is necessary. It's like an alcoholic knowing they need to quit, but taking that next step is hard. Still admitting it was huge

6:57 WTG4GOD: MAS **HUGS** our anniv is coming up. I'm trying not to hope he'll address it in some way in case he doesn't =P did your H address it at all?

6:57 Cricket [Facilitator]: MAS - Are you still walking a little (when it's not too hot)--- getting outside at least a little?

6:57 MAS: Cricket@6:48: Absolutely! That is actually what my H expressed to me at the time he moved out.

6:57 Still: MAS, my anniversary is next week. I am really dreading it. It is the same day as my birthday....which makes it even more awkward.

6:58 Bluesky1: Cricket, I sent h an email yesterday wishing him a HF day and good time with our kids. I didn't hear back from him which was fine. I was expecting too. But he didn't wish me a HM day. By doing this does it sound like I am saying I am better than you?

6:58 Plumcrazy: KOKO---I know how you feel. It was that way for a while with my H. Then he will get initiate more intimacy and then retreat from any physical contact and flinch if I touch him. It is hard. But you have to realize it is because they are in such turmoil

6:58 Bluesky1: Cricket, cuz that is not what I want at all. We are just aren't speaking anymore.

6:58 Free to fly: all: I'll accept the praise he has been so abstinent in this.

6:58 Cricket [Facilitator]: WTG4GOD - Prepare -most do not address or acknowledge an anniversary at all. It's just way too painful. BUT trust me, they are remembering and filled with memories. My H admitted thinking about it when he began reconnecting

6:59 WTG4GOD: Oh I forgot to ask, how does one get on the email list? is that for everyone?

6:59 WTG4GOD: Cricket - I bet it's nice to hear all the stuff you were wondering! Have you reconciled with your H?

6:59 MAS: Ro828@6:49 He must have had underlying issues. It's likely he used those things as just an excuse.

6:59 Bluesky1: Cricket, I have to laugh, "when it not too hot" won't happen again until maybe late Oct.

6:59 Swanlakejgs [Programmer]: All - The chat room will be closing in a few minutes, please remember to keep each other in prayer this week and join us again Wednesday evening.

6:59 Ro828: Still: I miss the physical touch. I don't have children so I'm not hugged. I'd like to be though. I think it makes a world of difference.

7:00 Cricket [Facilitator]: Blue - Doing this is showing unconditional love - they do appreciate your thoughts but won't acknowledge it. Doing so touches them & that's what you want. Just as long as you keep it light. They want to bury their head & try to forget but you're helping keep it alive

7:00 koko: All thanks for a good evening. I will pray for all tonight, keep standing

7:00 WTG4GOD: Wish I could give you a hug Ro :(

7:00 WTG4GOD: Def praying for everyone, thanks again :)

7:00 Still: (((RO828))) Here is a hug for you my friend! I have always been told a massage is a good substitute when you need physical touch.

7:00 Plumcrazy: Jim---Give Jan my love. Please take care of her and yourself. Thanks you for your encouragement and advice. It means so much.

7:05 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 7:00 Plumcrazy: thanks for your encouragement!

7:01 Cricket [Facilitator]: Ro828 - I don't have kids either & I noticed I became more of a hugger with friends -- If you could volunteer for seniors, they crave hugs & appreciate anything we can do so much

7:01 Free to fly: Ro828: ((((((((((Hugs)))))))))))))

7:01 Plumcrazy: ((((((((RO)))))))))

7:01 Ro828: Thanks WTG/Still. I appreciate your cyber hug.

7:02 Bluesky1: Cricket, thanks. The bday's will be coming up the next two months, so will have to figure it out again.

7:02 Free to fly: Blue: Thanks. How are you?

7:02 Plumcrazy: Goodnite all take care of yourselves

7:02 Ro828: Free/Plum: Thanks for your hugs too!

7:02 MAS: Ro828: From what I hear most of the OW are virtually the opposite of us.

7:02 Still: Goodnight, everyone!

7:02 WTG4GOD: Night ALL :)

7:02 Free to fly: Good night all

7:03 Bluesky1: Free, doing okay, actually looking forward to seeing my doc tomorrow. I have got to change AD's. Not doing so well with the one I have been touting lately.

7:04 Ro828: MAS 7:02. Yes, OW is extreme. She's not in my equation though. He'll have more drama with her than he ever did with me. I have to believe that wick will burn out one day and then he'll remember the one good woman he had & lost

7:04 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: To everyone in the chat room: I had a very lonely experience today because Jan was down visiting her father for Father's Day. I wanted her to be with him -- but I felt very much alone. As I was walking the country road near our house in northern Michigan, I said to myself, "I really want to go home." Then I ask myself, "Where is home?" In those moments I felt the terrible loneliness that I felt when my wife Sally died. I also felt that terrible loneliness that each of you in the chat room experience day after day. Just know that Jan and I pray for you all of the time -- God is not dead -- he does understand our pain -- these stores our tears in the Bible of his love. Keep trusting God -- keep encouraging each other -- we will all make it through this together!

7:04 Bluesky1: Ro, are you in the same town as your h?.

7:05 MAS: Cricket@6:57: Yes, when it's not too hot. I actually took a little walk around my neighborhood the other night.

7:05 Cricket [Facilitator]: Jim - That was beautiful - You brought tears to my eyes. Thank you both.

7:05 Bluesky1: Jim, so sorry you couldn't be with them together. did you hear from you kids?

7:05 Cricket [Facilitator]: MAS - WOW - I am so proud of you. GREAT JOB!

7:06 Bluesky1: MAS, wow good for you. the heat is really bothering me. I am usually out in Calif by this time of year. I guess that won't be happening for awhile.

7:07 Swanlakejgs [Programmer]: Goodnight everyone, see you Wednesday

7:08 Ro828: Blue: No, he left the city we lived in and now lives about 30 minutes away. Couldn't run fast enough or farther away from me. We have no contact. No same associates anymore and different friends. It's like he never existed in strange way.

7:08 MAS: BlueSky: I won't be doing too much walking, though. Not until things cool down a bit.

7:08 Bluesky1: goodnight

6:07 Ro828: Jim. Why do some men never come out of crisis?

6:09 Dr. Jim Conway [Administrator]: 6:07 Ro828: Some men never face the real issues at midlife, so they keep on struggling. Generally, midlife men do some adjusting as they push some of their midlife crisis to the background. Then when they come to retirement the issues erupt again, with double intensity. So it's better if people will face the issues as they come along in life, rather than letting them stack up.

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